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[Felblood]

Yeah, the new guys just need to see that the way to bolster your reputation here is to contribute to other people's idea threads, and advance the cause of making DF better. Once they see that, they should fall into line.

Foa does need some serious calling out for that newbie treatment >.>

Yes, but you could have sent him a PM and spared what little dignity he had left, after what I did to him in the first post. If we can't correct the impolite correctors politely, then humanity is surely doomed.

Sorry, Foa! I really didn't mean to single you out. I just wanted to demonstrate the constant and ongoing nature of the problem, by using the most recent example.

I'd blame my dentist, for prescribing these painkillers, but that was simply thoughtless of me. Once again, sorry Foa and Capntastic.

[Mephansteras]

Best response to flaming? Ignore it.

And I completely agree that new posters shouldn't be attacked for posting stuff that's been suggested before. I know when I started playing I made a giant post with lots of things I thought would improve the game. Many of them were common suggestions. I was politely told that and it was suggested that I should a) post individual suggestions in their own threads and b) see if anyone had already suggested something. I wasn't flamed nor did I feel that people were being elitist. We should continue being polite to new people. It certainly doesn't hurt us any, and more people playing DF and donating to Toady is a good thing.

Mostly, I don't see why people get so up in arms about someone suggesting something that's been suggested before. Yes, it clutters up the forum a little bit. But it also reinforces which ideas are really commonly desired.

Maybe we just need a few actual moderators? People who can be relied on to post a nice friendly note about suggestion posting rules and point people to the Eternal Suggestions thread and previous threads on the subject. Then everyone else can just shut up and trust that the mods will handle it.

[Faces of Mu]

I agree with Mephansteras that I don't see too much of a problem with unoriginal posting as the thread often moves off the first page of suggestions soon enough anyway (except in the case of people trying to correct them).

I think it also gives escaped lunatics a chance to put their two cents worth in for topics that they might not have been around to discuss. Being able to suggest and have a say creates a nice fiery passion for the game and the DF community and I'm sure that doesn't hurt Toady's donations.

If Toady reads most of the posts, it actually creates more work for him reading all the posts saying that so-and-so's suggestions have been made before than it would if that OP had just tacked their thoughts onto the end of a previous thread (ie, necropost = 1 post + constructive opinions > repost suggestion = 1 post + constructive opinions + corrective posts). I say this more to inhibit the overflow of corrective posts rather than to encourage searching and necroposting.

[Granite26]

Meph, You may be right about the mods... simply posting a link to where it's being discussed and closing the thread.  Standard verbage about 'if you read the original and feel like your idea is different or adds something to it, please post to it.  Also, feel free to express your support. (although I don't mind necro for support in the suggestions forum, others might)

Faces:  If only that were true.  One of the big problems is : New poster one posts and idea, new poster two adds to it, new poster three adds something else, all of them without realizing that the idea and all it's modifiers were discussed already.  It would be better if all that creativity got channeled starting from the point the last discussion ended, rather than reinventing the wheel.

Also, for controversial ideas, people feel the need to repost their objections (look at gunpowder for instance) less the fact that in THIS thread, nobody complained about it seems like community approval.

[Mephansteras]

Maybe we should actively encourage necroposting for the suggestions forum, for just that reason.

I think the only compelling reason to NOT necropost would be for threads that are cluttered with stuff that no longer holds true. A suggestion from the 2D version might very well have nothing to do with the same suggestion in the current 3D version. But in general, a discussion on something like gunpowder should be contained in one thread so that people don't have to keep going over the same arguments. Encourage people to find the old threads, read through them, and then post their ideas.

[Deathworks]

Hello!

I am not that active in the suggestions forum, especially not in the major discussions, so I haven't seen such behavior myself. However, I do agree with the OP that attacking newbies is not necessary.

The reasons why people may miss that something already exists can be manifold, actually:
* Failure to read they should check the forums (mentioned before)
* Inability to use the forum's search tool (probably rare, but possible)
* Looking for the wrong search term (probably not that rare); especially since they are newbies, they may not know the terms regularly used to refer to certain things, like HFS, for instance.
* Failure to understand the structure of the development homepages (concerning things already on the to-do list)

As I can see these possibilities for making a redundant thread without any actual malice on the part of the newbie, I do not think we can condemn them for making that 'mistake' right away.

Politely informing them about there already being an interesting discussion and pointing them to the relevant thread via a working link should probably not too much to ask for. Usually, when you do something like that, you will get some response showing how the newbie feels about it, and personally, I think that in most cases it will be gratitude and maybe a little bit of shame, together with good intention not to repeat the mistake. While I don't care for the shame bit, the intention to be more thorough with the future checks and the positive feelings the person obviously has towards the community are things I consider quite useful for the community. They increase the chances that a) the newbie will not repeat that 'mistake' while b) still being active and contributing to the community. And since the reasons for the initial behaviour can be manifold, that newbie may actually be a real source of inspiration for the community - if we only allow him/her to settle down here and share their views and imagination.

In addition, in such cases, the community should also strive for efficiency as was hinted before by other posters in this thread. Once the newbie has been informed about the existance of the other thread and provided the link, what else is there really to say about that case? I wouldn't be surprised if the "flaming" criticized is not actually the first response pointing out the redundancy, but rather other people chiming in adding nothing new except their disdain for the newbie. It may be just me, but such expressions of disdain do not seem like a useful contribution to the forums, so in effect, those additional posts are empty and a waste for the community at best.

In addition, such aggression may eventually leak into the general atmosphere as well, poisoning it. Especially in a diverse group like this (and this community is rather diverse due to the complexity and flexibility of DF which poses many interesting moral decisions to the player), a good atmosphere of tolerance is very important, I believe. If people start being elitist and exclusivist, it will in the end only tore the community apart, rendering it sterile as exclusion of the others replaces inspiring exchange of views and fostering creativity.

Well, at least that is the way I see this issue in general, having not faced this problem here myself.

Deathworks

[Fossaman]

I agree--duplicate topics are a problem. I've forgotten to search first a time or two myself. But I've seen other forums for game design that have solutions to these. There are a couple options that stand out.

1: In every forum there's going to be one or two users with encyclopedic knowledge of what has or has not been suggested, and mad skills with the search box. Right now, those users may contribute to the problem by telling the newb that it's already been posted, but not in a nice way. The forum I've seen this work on, the forum-guru would post, in a very clinical and non-offensive way, "This has already been suggested. *Link*,*Link*,*Link* etc," or "This suggestion here is kind of similar, but not exactly the same. *Link*" If the thread was an exact duplication, the Forum-Guru (who had been granted mod powers in the suggestion board because they were just so darn good at it) would lock the thread. If not, they'd leave it alone and let discussion proceed. It really kept things civil, and it kept discussion of specific ideas confined to one thread.

2: A list of frequently suggested items. The eternal suggestion voting is pretty similar to this, but not quite there. Having a list that is easily searchable using a browser's 'find' tool might cut down just a touch on people not searching using the forum-search. This one didn't work nearly as well over-all, though.

I think that a certain amount of intellectual 'inbreeding' is inevitable in open game design environments. A hundred newbies are going to come along with the same wonderful idea that is so original to them that they just can't possibly wait another second to post it, it's that awesome of an idea. This means they don't search before they post. But once the forum's been around for a while, that new idea gets a bit tarnished up and old, even though all the newbies are still having it. Having a Forum-Guru, or just helpful users who can find the links to duplicate threads, is very useful. It helps prevent new users from becoming discouraged, and keeps them involved. It has to be done with kindness and respect for the person who posts the idea, though, or it's just a bunch of elitist snobs who flame the newbies.

[Veroule]

My first thought about this, which actually happened quite a while ago, is that Toady should provide limitted moderator priveledges to a few trustworthy forum users.

Another fourm I am involved in has a very lax moderation quite similar to this one.  When people move into the flame region all a mod does is say, 'Please calm down a little.'  That is nearly always enough to take care of it, because it is an official moderator saying it.

If it keeps going past that, or is already too far gone, then the moderator just locks the topic.  Ancient flames are searchable there, and topics that flame the products the forum was created for are often open.
Duplicate posting in the Suggestions area isn't always a bad thing.  Sometimes the discussion evolves in such a way that a new and unique method is considered.  A user that is burdened with all the considerations of a previous discussion might not generate that new thought.  It is definitely worth linking all discussions about a given topic together, but that is really up to each of us.

If Toady's mind works anything like mine then he has thousands of ideas for things to do; and only a few thoughts about the HOWS of doing them.  Actually, the dev pages support this premise.  Suggestions are useful to provide a premise of the minimum parts for those ideas.
Having a topic come up again is useful to bump its priority.  This can be achieved both from a new discussion and necro'ing an old post.  Necromancy tends to ensure that any private record Toady has on that topic will be correctly corordinated.  Having links posted is nearly as good.

Once again it comes back to us, the average forum goer.  Yes, we should post links to older discussions when we know they exist.  Yes, we should try to be polite; it is a basic responsibility of human society.  Yes, we need to help newer users; we were all there once and DF is more complex than anyone less then Toady can comprehend.

[SirHoneyBadger]

Moderation has been suggested before, even by me in a form or two, but it's really not a good idea. I've had as many bad experiences with moderators as I have with others, and Toady's the only one I trust with that kind pf power--myself included.

These forums remain remarkably pleasant and self-sufficient, without additional moderation.

I agree entirely with the OP's sentiment, although possibly not with his vicodin prescription 

Also, the Search button isn't that easy to use 

[Granite26]

Happy?

[SirHoneyBadger]

Happy?

Sorry, did I miss something? I'm on muscle relaxers for my back, so I'm a little goofy, too.

[Felblood]

Moderation has been suggested before, even by me in a form or two, but it's really not a good idea. I've had as many bad experiences with moderators as I have with others, and Toady's the only one I trust with that kind pf power--myself included.

True. I actually do moderating on some other forums, but I wouldn't trust myself with the DF Suggestions Forum. There's too much passion, and too much entitlement here, for the traditional clinical-but-not-curt moderation tactics to work.

To moderate this forum, you would need the respect of every person here. Only Toady has that.

So instead of asking for more mods, I asked for a rule, that I felt would help our community to grow and prosper more effectively, without creating a need for a lot of additional moderation.

[bjlong]

As before, I would suggest that somehow we get the topic title to be automatically entered into a search when someone clicks the "post" button. So you'd first get a few search results before you post a new topic. Don't know if that's feasible or not.

[Capntastic]

\ I asked for a rule, that I felt would help our community to grow and prosper more effectively, without creating a need for a lot of additional moderation.

The problem is that the current rules:

    * Check our development pages. You can find everything in one place at this link.
    * Search for an existing thread.

aren't enforced as it is.

If I were a moderator, I'd simply lock redundant threads and append a link to a previous thread in the original post.   It'd direct people to the previous thread, and instantly quell any possible dissent.   What needs to be done, I feel is for a moderator* to create 'Prime Suggestion' threads wherein constant topics- machinery, magic, etc, can be discussed in their own megathreads.   

Less threads to manage is always good, I feel.

*A year ago when I suggested that all magic threads be condensed into one megamagic thread, like three people all rushed to be the 'first' to post it, securing their fame and fortune.   This had the exact opposite effect as planned, obviously.   There needs to be some authority for people to follow so discussion can be shephered in fruitful directions.

[Granite26]

see... That's what I don't like... the shepherding part.  The idea that just because somebody owns the first post they have some control over the discussion.  That's the best argument against 1 thread per topic I've seen.

I still like putting all the comments on a single topic in one place, but if that means putting someone in charge of the discussion, count me out.