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[Ampersand]

Wait, when did you guys start talking about Final Fantasy?

[beorn080]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

In this post http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=30860.msg423919#msg423919

I must say that just making the boss stronger because you found something is pretty bad design. I have played games where you could either finish the game earlier or do some sidequests that end in the boss getting a last form. Penalizing you for simply leveling up is just wrong.

[Ampersand]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It's not so much that you're penalized, it's that the challenge is ramped up to equal the player's level. It's that, or have a game that requires level grinding. It's that, or have the epic final battle end in two moves.

[beorn080]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

If a person has taken the time to grind to max level, the final battle should be a breeze. Shame developers skimped on game design over ease. Would have been easy to have a ultimate final form that was unsealed when you acquired the KotR attack. Instead they went with arbitrary boss strength tied to level. Yet another reason to never finish it.

[Ampersand]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Well, it's not just that. The Final Boss doesn't just get additional health and magic power, but additional spells and other attacks that it uses. One must understand that the Knights of the Round summon is such an incredible heavy hitter, that the Final Boss is STILL a breeze if you take the time to level the summon itself up. It also has a bragging rights aspect to it. It is entirely possible to defeat the final boss at level 20, but that's easy, as the bosses level is proportionate to your own. A completionist really has something to write home about when they beat it.

[beorn080]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

A completionist isn't worried about the final boss per se. A boss thats easy at level 20 and much harder at level 99 isn't a wellthought out boss. A boss thats hard at normal playthrough levels, easy at grind levels, and barely possible to beat at minimum possible experince is a good boss.

I mean lets take it to the FPS genre. A boss should be beatable with a pistol, but if you have the BFG of the game, it should be much easier. Hell the DoomRL I beat the [spoiler]Cyberdemon

without taking damage using metal gear tactics with the revanent launcher. Proper equipment + proper tactics = win. He didn't suddenly gain skills because I had a new trick up my sleeve.[/spoiler]

[Sowelu]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

What, you don't think it's reasonable that if the player grinds levels for like twenty hours, the Big Bad gets to do the same thing?  Of course that's impossible in DoomRL, since you can't grind levels anyway, and the whole game takes a short amount of time.

[beorn080]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The point I was trying to make was that even though I got a brand new piece of equipment that was pretty much the best weapon in the game (don't want to argue, only weapon that gives you an ability that you don't have before.) the boss didn't suddenly get a new attack to compensate.

[Granite26]

Alright, the spoiler things kinda done... we've gotten 3 degrees off anything that's even relevant to spoilers.

Anywho:

It's part of the inherent player-designer contract that making good decisions and working at it is rewarded.  That's why Oblivion was so reviled:  The more you leveled the harder it got.

[Sowelu]

In general, I consider a challenging game to be a reward.  It's how I know I'm winning.  If the game starts giving me freebies and easy stuff, I'm like "Aww I must really suck :<".  But if I can tell they ramped up the difficulty just for me, I feel special, like that time I got to ride on the short bus.

[Granite26]

I guess I'm just a 'you can't do it unless you're good enough in the first place' guy

[Ioric Kittencuddler]

In general, I consider a challenging game to be a reward.  It's how I know I'm winning.  If the game starts giving me freebies and easy stuff, I'm like "Aww I must really suck :<".  But if I can tell they ramped up the difficulty just for me, I feel special, like that time I got to ride on the short bus.

Well that's interesting.  You're apparently suffering from backwards logic.

You do realize that generally, when something is easy for you it means you're good at it right?

[Sowelu]

Yes, I'm sure that's exactly how you'd feel if your sibiling said "Okay, okay, I'll go easy on you in Street Fighter, I won't block and I'll only use light attacks."

[Ioric Kittencuddler]

Yes, I'm sure that's exactly how you'd feel if your sibiling said "Okay, okay, I'll go easy on you in Street Fighter, I won't block and I'll only use light attacks."

When did we start talking about your sibling going easy on you in street fighter?  This entire thread has been about single player games.

[Servant Corps]

No, actually this thread is about a game where you fight an African weapons dealer.