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[Solarn]

I personally like the idea of having some flintlocks and cannon

I am against everything like that in DF. Cannons/muskets/firearms/whatever. It would ruin the real fantasy feeling in the game. Gunpowder is okay, it could be used to blow up something, or it could be an alchemy ingredient for example.

In most standard fantasy worlds, dwarves DO have primitive guns and cannons.

[Bob Kelso]

I wouldn't like facial hair on my face, as it would ruin that whole fantasy feel.

Personally I was shocked when I figured out guns weren't included. Looks like the vaguely defined "mechanisms" that utterly defy physics made it in, however. The alchemist lab sure sounded novel in theory, but strangely enough... Strangely enough, alchemy has no use whatsoever.

I hear that phrase thrown around a lot around here, strangely enough. Would guns just be too strange for you guys? Or not strange enough? Oh well, I suppose I can always build a cooled magma tower with a chamber full of magma on top of a chamber full of magma-release levers surrounded by a magma moat.

But guns? Puhlease. Fuck that noise.

[G-Flex]

This might surprise you, but levers, gears, and alchemy have been around much longer than gunpowder.

Mechanisms are vaguely-defined because of a game design technique called "abstraction"; you may wish to look into it. And how do they "utterly defy physics"?

Alchemy doesn't have any uses besides soap right now because, well, the game is hardly even close to finished. And if you haven't been looking at the development posts, things like poisonous materials and such are making their way into the game as of next version, meaning things like the alchemy workshops will probably be getting more use sooner rather than later. And who knows, maybe dwarves will actually use soap someday; other basic hygiene (grooming of hair/nails/etc) is in the next version as well.

Guns aren't going in the game because toady is aiming for a level of medieval European style technology from an era where guns either weren't around or were extremely primitive.


Sidenote: What is included in "most fantasy worlds" doesn't matter. At all. This is an original product created by a living person, not a mindless consensus of previously-used ideas.

[Bob Kelso]

My point was, you can hook up a lever located anywhere, to a machine located anywhere else. So theoretically I could hook up a lever on the peak of a mountain to a floodgate at the bottom of a chasm. Do you think the dwarven mechanisms can cover this type of situation within reason? And what's the deal with those magical spells?

Sidenote: What is included in "most fantasy worlds" doesn't matter. At all. This is an original product created by a living person, not a mindless consensus of previously-used ideas.

Dwarves drink alcohol. Dwarves make objects of extravagant wealth. Dwarves prefer axes in combat, work all day, live in underground mountain-fortresses, and are exceptionally greedy.

What? Oh, my bad - I was just listing the stereotypes of Dwarves derived from practically every other medium of fantasy media. Wh... Oh, seriously? They're all in this game? GET OUT. That's fuckin' twisted, man.

[anomaly]

crossbows may as well be automatic rifles, they are so damn powerful as it is

[Yaddy1]

Guns? No they would ruin it. But primitive cannons were first discovered in Europe in the 13th century. In China they were in use even earlier.

[BurnedToast]

Guns aren't going in the game because toady is aiming for a level of medieval European style technology from an era where guns either weren't around or were extremely primitive.

Toady has said that 1400 is a rough cutoff date for technology included in DF. By 1380 handguns were well known across Europe and 1400 is right around the time when the matchlock gun was invented. Primitive? yes of course by our standards, but they were past the point of 'arcane device that blows up it's user more then the enemy'. Furthermore, primitive cannon had been in use in Europe since 1248, and were almost certainly used at the battle of Crécy in 1346.

IIRC, the official word is Toady said he was still undecided about weather gunpowder and guns/cannon would eventually be officially added. Personally I think they should be, and the dwarven luddites can just not use them or mod them out.

[zchris13]

Crossbows really do that, if you use it right.  They were developed to use armor peircing rounds.  Like plate mail.  Shoop! There go's a lung.

[Tormy]

I personally like the idea of having some flintlocks and cannon

I am against everything like that in DF. Cannons/muskets/firearms/whatever. It would ruin the real fantasy feeling in the game. Gunpowder is okay, it could be used to blow up something, or it could be an alchemy ingredient for example.

In most standard fantasy worlds, dwarves DO have primitive guns and cannons.

So? That means that we need to have guns in DF also? Not that it matters, since we will be able to mod them out, even if we gonna have them anyway. [..thankfully  ]

[G-Flex]

My point was, you can hook up a lever located anywhere, to a machine located anywhere else. So theoretically I could hook up a lever on the peak of a mountain to a floodgate at the bottom of a chasm. Do you think the dwarven mechanisms can cover this type of situation within reason? And what's the deal with those magical spells?

• Abstraction. Jesus Christ, just look it up. And of course it winds up with kind of dumb outlier situations sometimes, but that's what we have at the moment. Do you really think everything in this game is in its ideal state? It's not. The game is in, for all intents and purposes, at a relatively EARLY state of development. Ideally, yes, mechanisms would be fleshed out more, but for now that and a lot of other things are heavily abstracted and sometimes in suboptimal ways. That doesn't mean the ideas themselves are bad, and you can't really bitch about something so much just because it's so far from being finished; if you expect the game to be 100% finished, go play something else.
• ... What magical spells?

Dwarves drink alcohol. Dwarves make objects of extravagant wealth. Dwarves prefer axes in combat, work all day, live in underground mountain-fortresses, and are exceptionally greedy.

What? Oh, my bad - I was just listing the stereotypes of Dwarves derived from practically every other medium of fantasy media. Wh... Oh, seriously? They're all in this game? GET OUT. That's fuckin' twisted, man.
[/quote]

Of course dwarves in DF are similar to other dwarves. You're missing my point entirely. My point is that just because they're similar to standard fantasy dwarves doesn't mean they have to be identical in all respects, or that they have to STAY as similar as they are. How dwarves are depicted in other works has not necessarily any bearing on how they should be depicted in this game. Toady can and very well should deviate from typical traits of fantasy creatures in his work, and he already has to some degree.

[Bob Kelso]

My comment about levers seems to have put you on the defensive. Relax brah, I'm not trying to hurt your game. It's cool. Really. I just happen to think it's a legitimate complaint as of now, and if you feel it's going to be fixed in the future then I'm all the more welcome to that. Bygones are bygones.

Of course Toady would be inclined to stick to the formula as far as dwarfs are concerned, since that's the main reason I, and probably the vast majority of us became so enamored with this game in the first place. Why? Easy, because as fictitious races go, dwarves have been proven to be as entertaining and likable as you can get, and their activities and personalities have become so deeply ingrained in our little hearts at this point that I frankly don't envision any drastic changes at all. Though I have been wrong before. By all means, if a couple weeks later fanny packs and roller skates turn out to be mandatory for all dwarfs then I will eat my words.

Gunpowder, however, is debatable, and that's what we should be debating about.

[Akigagak]

Toady can and very well should deviate from typical traits of fantasy creatures in his work, and he already has to some degree.

Ie. Cannibal Elves?

[Solarn]

Sidenote: What is included in "most fantasy worlds" doesn't matter. At all. This is an original product created by a living person, not a mindless consensus of previously-used ideas.

Yes, but that wasn't my point. My point was that "it would ruin the fantasy feel" makes no sense, because "the fantasy feel" allows for dwarven flintlocks and cannons.

I wouldn't want them though. Maybe cannons as siege weapons, since they fit into the current feel of the world rather well. But nothing else. Guns would throw off the power balance (as if there was any in the first place) like whoa.

[G-Flex]

Agreed.

I think it would make sense for dwarves (and probably dwarves only) to have some limited use of gunpowder. They should know how to make basic bombs with it.

Probably not landmines or anything, as much fun as that would be, but at least a basic sort of "throw this powder in a bag, light a fuse, run the hell away" sort of thing.

[zchris13]

That, my friend, is the second best use of explosives. The first being throwing said bomb into the river, to kill the carp.  Or making an elephant pieces gun.