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[Duke 2.0]

Fun fact: Massive parts of the moons surface is made out of glass.

It becomes less impressive when you tell people the definition of glass...

...and when you tell then the size of the bits of glass.

[Sowelu]

You know the best way to find glass in a desert or, more likely, a beach?

Wait for lightning to hit it, then go where the lightning just hit.

Funny anecdote about that is, I've heard reports of the same type of glass from nuclear strikes being found in the middle of deserts that were never actually used to test anything nuclear, atleast as far as we know.

Apparently, it's part of the whole "chariots of the gods" range of theories that suggest either a very advanced civilization existed before ours, or that another species (aliens in other words) were in conflict, in the past, on our planet.

[scale_e]

Drinking only blood would probably give you iron poisoning. Then there's the question how did the enemies make it all the way to your hole in the ground without any supplies

There's just so many leaks in this plan I don't even know where to begin. Any real desert settlement would invariably be based around an oasis. Just add those into the game and deserts aren't a total waste

Reclaimers and hauling water through the desert are negative sum games.  A donkey drinks 1 gallon per day, travels 30 miles per day, and can haul 30 gallons worth of weight.  For 20 dwarves (drink 1 gallon per day, reclaim half) living 300 miles into the desert, it would take one donkey every single day to bring enough in, and that's not counting profit or the drivers or anything.

Crude reclaimers could get what, 5 gallons of water from a human (on the high end).  (Reclaimers always seemed like a violation of conservation of matter to me.  In order for it to work, the water lost to evaporation (sweat, plants) has to be regained somehow.  It's like putting a bandage on a splinter when you've got a gunshot wound

The original argument was 'if we make booze require water, and plants require water, nothing could survive in the desert'.  Nothing is stopping people from being clever (carving out underground rivers, for example), but I don't think we should go out of our why to make it possible for non-clever people.  There's a plate of gold?  I'm sure they'll find a way to get water there, but that doesn't mean that we have to magically warp the world to make some special case work.

Hell, people are already building cross world aqueducts...

1st off, based on your math, you're saying a donkey gets 30 miles to the gallon, and can haul 30 gallons on weight. This means a donkeys effective range is 900 miles. Ok, I'll work with that.
Let's say a donkey walks 150 miles out into the desert, dumps off 20 gallons of water, picks up 25gallons worth in weight of whatever awesome resource has attracted the dwarves, and walks 150 miles back.
Now, lets say, one dwarf is leading a herd (is 'herd' the multiple of donkey?) of 50 donkeys back and forth supplying the settlement. That's 1000 gallons of water supplied each trip, and if the thing out in the desert is that impressive, the 25gal worth in weight of it would more than cover everything.
Beyond that, it's the desert. You'd be using camels, which require much less water.

2nd, in Dune, the desert people wore still-suits. Which collected sweat and moisture from exhalation. Yes, i know its a work of science fiction, but the tech wasn't that advanced, and yes I believe dwarves could make something like that if they were keen.

3rd, death-stills and still-suits to get water wouldn't make it "possible for non-clever people". It would be another resource that has to be monitored and tweaked with to keep your dwarves alive. If you lost your water supply for a season, all your dwarves would die. It would still be a massive challenge.

[Aspgren]

Massive challenge?

Kill the latest batch of migrants. (since they don't have any friends, we want to avoid tantrums.) Put them in the death still. Profit.

[scale_e]

Massive challenge?

Kill the latest batch of migrants. (since they don't have any friends, we want to avoid tantrums.) Put them in the death still. Profit.

how is getting the moisture from 1 batch of immigrants, which only happens every 2nd season, exploit this situation? That's just stupid.

[DennyTom]

Not within the sacred pre-1400 time frame...

But other than that a good idea.

Are you kidding?

(side note - I have read whole thread before posting)

In Egypt when nomads ran out of water, they killed they camels and drank water that is in one of camel's stomaches. Also when you open stomach of most plant eaters, you will find almost digested grass from that you can wring out water (it tastes AWFUL and may not be clear of bacteria, etc BUT is drinkable). All you need is sharp thing to kill and open your silent friend.

[Granite26]

A donkey drinks 1 gallon per day,
travels 30 miles per day,
and can haul 30 gallons worth of weight. 
For 20 dwarves (drink 1 gallon per day, reclaim half)
living 300 miles into the desert,

1st off, based on your math, you're saying a donkey gets 30 miles to the gallon, and can haul 30 gallons on weight. This means a donkeys effective range is 900 miles. Ok, I'll work with that.
Let's say a donkey walks 150 miles out into the desert, dumps off 20 gallons of water, picks up 25gallons worth in weight of whatever awesome resource has attracted the dwarves, and walks 150 miles back.
Now, lets say, one dwarf is leading a herd (is 'herd' the multiple of donkey?) of 50 donkeys back and forth supplying the settlement. That's 1000 gallons of water supplied each trip, and if the thing out in the desert is that impressive, the 25gal worth in weight of it would more than cover everything.
Beyond that, it's the desert. You'd be using camels, which require much less water.

I'm not going to argue the perpetual motion machine that is still suits...  It's a personal thing...

On the example: 
Sure, 50 donkey donkeys spending their entire lives walking back and forth could in fact supply a dwarf fort with water.  I'll even concede that there exists a number of donkeys such that you could do all the hauling you needed.  Further, I'll concede that there is a number of donkeys that could haul everything you need, and with enough margin that you could stand to lose a caravan.

I'm not sure where all that water will come from, though.

[Neonivek]

Well... if it is a Baren Desert then it comes from Rivers (Most cities in Baren Deserts tend to be very close to the sides and rarely do things then villages form inside the desert) or in an unlikely place an Oasis.

Of course if the game is done correctly you will also need to protect your Water Hunters from monsters an enemy armies! Making Desert locations even tougher (though I guess much more fun).

Your whole herd gets killed... then you very well may have just lost.

[DennyTom]

One note to the aquaduct idea ... Romans have built very very VERY long aquaducts. And very precise (if my memory is not failing, there was height differerence of 1 cm on 500 meters of length). I see no reason why dwarves could not do the same.

Only problem I see is temperature and possibility of evaporating of all water before it reaches destination. But that can be dwarvenly solved by placing aquaduct underground.

[Aspgren]

Massive challenge?

Kill the latest batch of migrants. (since they don't have any friends, we want to avoid tantrums.) Put them in the death still. Profit.

how is getting the moisture from 1 batch of immigrants, which only happens every 2nd season, exploit this situation? That's just stupid.

I'm used to waves of 10-25 immigrants and dwarves don't really have to drink that often.
I'm sure I'd pull through. Their animals will end up in the chamber too.

... but really I just want in on the cannibalism and that's all there is to it.

[zchris13]

... but really I just want in on the cannibalism and that's all there is to it.

SIG'ED!

[scale_e]

A donkey drinks 1 gallon per day,
travels 30 miles per day,
and can haul 30 gallons worth of weight. 
For 20 dwarves (drink 1 gallon per day, reclaim half)
living 300 miles into the desert,

1st off, based on your math, you're saying a donkey gets 30 miles to the gallon, and can haul 30 gallons on weight. This means a donkeys effective range is 900 miles. Ok, I'll work with that.
Let's say a donkey walks 150 miles out into the desert, dumps off 20 gallons of water, picks up 25gallons worth in weight of whatever awesome resource has attracted the dwarves, and walks 150 miles back.
Now, lets say, one dwarf is leading a herd (is 'herd' the multiple of donkey?) of 50 donkeys back and forth supplying the settlement. That's 1000 gallons of water supplied each trip, and if the thing out in the desert is that impressive, the 25gal worth in weight of it would more than cover everything.
Beyond that, it's the desert. You'd be using camels, which require much less water.

I'm not going to argue the perpetual motion machine that is still suits...  It's a personal thing...

On the example: 
Sure, 50 donkey donkeys spending their entire lives walking back and forth could in fact supply a dwarf fort with water.  I'll even concede that there exists a number of donkeys such that you could do all the hauling you needed.  Further, I'll concede that there is a number of donkeys that could haul everything you need, and with enough margin that you could stand to lose a caravan.

I'm not sure where all that water will come from, though.

Still suits powered by pumps built into heels, not perpetual motion.
Having still-suits in the game would be nice, but what I was talking about earlier was door-seals at the entrance to your fortress so that the entire fortress is basically a still-suit. Much simpler. The only moisture loss then would be from dwarves outside, and in a barren desert, with the exception of hunting goblins for their water, why do they need to go outside? You would trade for trees and food. No fishing, no hunting.

And the water comes from areas that aren't barren desert... in the example, the settlement was only 150miles into the desert. So 150 miles back was a river/lake/aquifer/Lars-and-Hagars-Spa-and-Bath-Resort.

[Granite26]

I didn't mean it like that.  Only... Entropy wins, and a truly closed system is impossible.

The cavern idea isn't horrible though.

Even today we have problems providing clean drinking water for our populace.  If you go to the edge of the desert and start grabbing 100's of gallons a day, it'll affect the water table.  That's what I meant by 'not sure where all the water would come from'

Seems easier to just build an aqueduct underground

[Neonivek]

I didn't mean it like that.  Only... Entropy wins, and a truly closed system is impossible.

The cavern idea isn't horrible though.

Even today we have problems providing clean drinking water for our populace.  If you go to the edge of the desert and start grabbing 100's of gallons a day, it'll affect the water table.  That's what I meant by 'not sure where all the water would come from'

Seems easier to just build an aqueduct underground

Exactly it should be difficult to boarderline insane! but not impossible if you properly prepare.

There should be MUCH more difficult places to live in in Dwarf Fortress. Such as a Desert with the Sphere of Flame or Chaos.

[TheMirth]

The offsite aqueduct building idea seems perfectly in line with the dwarves in DF. I don't really see the deathstills as fitting the current dwarves (no eat sapient ethic, torture etc.) I could definitely see goblins doing it, but they wouldn't build an aqueduct.

There could be better rain collection functions in the game, as it is now you're reliant on muddy pool tiles to actually collect water. Rain barrels or terraforming the landscaped to drain into a stone cistern would be nice as well.

While I agree with Granite 26 that stillsuit\sites are more a conservation source of water than a renweable source of water. The Fort Still site would be a fun exercise, using the alchemist to treat waste and producing water. Since waste isn't currently in game you could use dump sites that the alchemist would visit with an empty bucket (preferably a barrel but barrels don't store water yet) and comback with filth, do his treatment job and then dump the treated water into a pond. It's a little clunky and inaccurate but probably the simplest way to abstract the process now until all the fluid and poison arcs are advanced.