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Author Topic: Tantrum Spirals: The good, the bad, the ugly  (Read 2804 times)

Awayfarer

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Tantrum Spirals: The good, the bad, the ugly
« on: February 09, 2009, 08:47:07 am »

So I recently had an awesome titan attack on my current fort, Knotlances.

It's spring. The hippies have shown up with a bunch of useless cloth and a few berries. My military are at their posts when...goblin ambush! Thankfully most of them attack from the western side; the only entrance that I've trapped heavily. My military mops up, taking down a couple of suspiciously tall, slender goblins with pointy ears. The place is a mess though, and my traps are now all clogged/set off.

So that tears it. First these elves bring worthless crap to my depot, now they're leading goblin ambushers? I send my trader to the trade depot and sieze the berries. The elves are a bit upset and decided to leave early.

That's when the titan shows up. Titan heads for the south entrance where the elves are just leaving. She proceeds to kill a mule, pick up a bin of cloth and pound the elves to a fine paste with it! Almost as if she knew my frustration, and was trying to say "Yeah, seriously guys. Enough with the *&$^%-ing cloth."

Sadly this was the only thing we could agree on. The titan proceeded to slaughter my military, who were apparently busy patting themselves on the backs after the goblin ambush. They trickle in in ones and twos and are promptly cloth-binned to death.

That's when the immigrants arrived.

The titan figures she likes the look of these new playmates. She wanders halfway over the map and begins mashing the new arrivals into the ground. Killing roughly half (some 7 or 8 out of 16) of them.

To make a long story short it returned to the fort killed a couple of wardogs and made short work of my remaining melee dwarves. I had to recruit everyone to fight the thing. It kills or mortally wounds even more dwarves, but eventually a mechanic strikes the killing blow.

Final count is 28 dead dwarves. Fifteen more die later from their wounds, lack of health care, beatings for tantrum-related crimes or being murdered by tantruming dwarves.

Incredibly they pull through. The fort is still going. I've enshrined the titan's cloth bin as a memorial.  :)
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--There: Indicates location or state of being.
"The ale barrel is over there. There is a dwarf in it."
--Their: Indicates possession.
"Their beer has a dwarf in it. It must taste terrible.
--They're: A contraction of the words "they are".
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Aqizzar

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Re: Tantrum Spirals: The good, the bad, the ugly
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2009, 12:13:19 pm »

Awesomest titan ever.

Somebody needs to draw a picture of a titan pulverizing elves and dwarves with a big crate.
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Raphite1

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Re: Tantrum Spirals: The good, the bad, the ugly
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2009, 12:18:41 pm »

I wish Titans did cool stuff like that for me. =( The Titan that showed up at my fort was killed by a single speardwarf, who took no injuries.

Deathworks

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Re: Tantrum Spirals: The good, the bad, the ugly
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2009, 12:30:32 pm »

Hello!

Well, that is indeed an impressive incident. As for the cloth bin, I can only assume the titan hoped to find a deadly loincloth hidden in there, the standard weapon of epic heroes :) :)

How big was your fortress population at the time of the incident? This would make it easier for us to understand just what this meant for your fortress.

As for pulling through, I think that really losing DF in fortress mode completely is very difficult to achieve. Perma-flooding is no longer available, so only mass starvation could cause trouble, but ever since 3D, starvation didn't really pose half as much of a danger as in 2D (at least in standard maps).

In the end, you will have a handful of dwarves who had no friends and thus didn't tantrum, and they will continue from scratch.

Actually, now that I think of it, it could be a challenge for some of the nastier players - preparing a fortress that will actually get wiped out completely by a tantrum spiral. I think that would be rather difficult to achieve (especially if you allow for normal immigration).

Deathworks
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Earthquake Damage

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Re: Tantrum Spirals: The good, the bad, the ugly
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2009, 02:34:38 pm »

Actually, now that I think of it, it could be a challenge for some of the nastier players - preparing a fortress that will actually get wiped out completely by a tantrum spiral. I think that would be rather difficult to achieve (especially if you allow for normal immigration).

I should think that all that'd take is a single-tile meeting zone and lots of idle time.  Idling together leads to large networks of friends.
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Martin

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Re: Tantrum Spirals: The good, the bad, the ugly
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2009, 03:07:52 pm »

No immigrant forts can get pretty close. You get 3-4 soldiers killed, a few from the same family and it all goes downhill from there. I've got a family with 7 kids and another with 6. I need to make sure I don't commit too many of them permanently to the military. Even in that situation, it's not hard to keep everyone happy with masterwork food and furniture, if you bother to take the effort.

Maggarg - Eater of chicke

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Re: Tantrum Spirals: The good, the bad, the ugly
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2009, 03:37:27 pm »

My titan was mobbed by my 7 champs and 10 recruits.
1 champ died when he was thrown into the waterfall output, and 7 recruits died.
That titan was epic.
I will forever remember Bossu Braingrizzled the True Poetry.
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inaluct

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Re: Tantrum Spirals: The good, the bad, the ugly
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2009, 03:56:21 pm »

I will totally learn how to draw some day. In the mean time, have this artist's interpretation of the event:

This is a picture of Bossu Braingrizzled the True Poetry the Titan and dwarves. Bossu Braingrizzled the True Poetry is crushing the dwarves with a cloth bin and a HUGE MANLY FIIIIIST This engraving relates to the crushing of Nil Imishtoneg and Urist Dumedzeg by Bossu Braingrizzled the True Poetry in the dwarf fortress Knotlances in the year 234.
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jester

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Re: Tantrum Spirals: The good, the bad, the ugly
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2009, 04:00:02 pm »

Give everyone an iron battleaxe or pick of +quality+ or above and you can come pretty close to shutting a fort down with tantrums.  I had 3 wounded turn into about 20 wounded in 4 seasons.  Nothing like a legendary pump operator with a masterwork axe having a very bad day to spread the hurt around.   Many of the wounds were amputations (I had 8 miners and about 60 "woodcutters") so not much chance of recovery, the other problem is that I didnt notice my sherriff going down early minus a leg below the knee and my hammerer falling prey to an accidental rain of goblins the previous season. 
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Aqizzar

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Re: Tantrum Spirals: The good, the bad, the ugly
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2009, 04:06:59 pm »

Yay, art.

And I see I'm not the only person who arms people with woodcutting axes just for giggles.  Oh I tell myself it's to defend them because my entrance planning is crap and the cave river is full of monsters.  But it's really because I'd like to see an actual fight when someone goes berko.


...and my hammerer falling prey to an accidental rain of goblins the previous season.

"How's the weather up topside?"
"Erm.  Goblin comin' down thick these days.  Erm, yep."
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Awayfarer

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Re: Tantrum Spirals: The good, the bad, the ugly
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2009, 04:57:32 pm »

Hello!

Well, that is indeed an impressive incident. As for the cloth bin, I can only assume the titan hoped to find a deadly loincloth hidden in there, the standard weapon of epic heroes :) :)

How big was your fortress population at the time of the incident? This would make it easier for us to understand just what this meant for your fortress.

I should have mentioned; the population was about 115 before the attack. So between the titan and the aftermath that's about 1/3 of the fort's population.

Quote
As for pulling through, I think that really losing DF in fortress mode completely is very difficult to achieve. Perma-flooding is no longer available, so only mass starvation could cause trouble, but ever since 3D, starvation didn't really pose half as much of a danger as in 2D (at least in standard maps).

Thing is that I've never heard anyone mention a tantrum spiral with a happy ending. Maybe it's just that those aren't dramatic enough to talk about. I've only ever had one other experience with TS's myself, and I abandoned that when I only had four dwarves left (out of 70) and all were either berserk, legless and/or depressed.

It is pretty hard to lose, though. In a way I was hoping that the fort would go down in a miasmic heap just to make the story more interesting.  :)
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--There: Indicates location or state of being.
"The ale barrel is over there. There is a dwarf in it."
--Their: Indicates possession.
"Their beer has a dwarf in it. It must taste terrible.
--They're: A contraction of the words "they are".
"They're going to pull the dwarf out of the barrel."

Annoying

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Re: Tantrum Spirals: The good, the bad, the ugly
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2009, 07:08:43 am »

I've never had a tantrum spiral finish off a fortress, but the last one I had came entirely too close. After a goblin ambush killed 2 or 3 ad hoc militia members the dwarves gathered at the meeting hall which they'd never really left since it was designated to remember those fallen. Then, they departed peacefully going back to their jobs and food/booze stocks. A little bit later one of them decided that sleeping in the bunk beds wasn't good enough, or maybe it was the merely incredible rather than uberroyal dining room that put him over the edge. He tantrums, and whines and complains, and annoys some others who do the same.

Then, they all calm down.

Then, one random dwarf concludes that he's utterly sick of the same food and throws his plump helmet at someone I suppose. A dwarf who took that as murderin' words. More tantrums, this time leading to the spiral proper. As the spiral continues any attempts to resolve it fail. I resort to drastic measures, locking the doors, everyone inside stays inside to die, everyone outside is dispersed enough to survive. Naturally the goblins know this is the time to ambush, three times in a few moments. So now, score is all inside consigned to die in the darkness, those outside probably for the goblins or consigned to gibber madly for the rest of their days. This having taken about 2 seasons, the liason in the fortress and some traders or guards gives in to the madness now as well. They're tough, several berserk dwarves failed to take him down.

As the population winds down, when the blood ceases to run down the walls, 3 survivors outside 1 in the courtyard (locked from both inside and outside) and 2 outside. 2 survivors inside, one wounded to the point of probably never moving again, and the berserk liason. Carefully cautiously herding the remaining outside survivors in to the courtyard, I manage to lose another one. It's beginning to feel like a bad level of lemmings. The living, sane badly wounded survivor dies of thirst, leaving 2 outside and 1 berserker inside with goblins beyond the courtyard but no food or such in the courtyard. A little bit of shuffling and circle running, two dwarves manage to get in while at the same time in a bit of pure brilliance tricking the berserk liason outside, locking the door behind them.

Of the 2, remaining out of 112(!), one promptly calms down from running circles around the berserk liason, and begins to gibber madly, and refuses to eat.

The sole survivor, put herself a bed and some pretty baubles in a nice room, farmed a little bit locked the doors and waited, and waited. Alone in the dark, trying to spruce the place up for immigrants she prayed for, cleaning blood off the walls and avoiding the stinking carcasses of 100 some dead dwarves and many animals.

The best part of course, the *only* bright side to this story, immigrants arrived rather promptly although the first wave was too few in number to clean the place up. The survivor is offically my most epic dwarf as she survived probably everything that spiral had to offer, goblins liasons other dwarves madness starvation. Nearly 10 years later she lives, and has been reelected as mayor perpetually ever since, becoming legendary in several skills and miraculously without any permanent injuries from the ordeal.

The closest I'd ever come to losing a fort to tantrum spiral before that is one that went from 60 or so down to 2 or 3, and when I saw the last walking survivor in the barracks, covered in mud blood and vomit, I couldn't bear to torture them anymore and abandoned that fortress.
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Aqizzar

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Re: Tantrum Spirals: The good, the bad, the ugly
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2009, 07:33:56 am »

EDIT: Posted in wrong thread, but I'll make this count.

My two biggest problems with actually getting tantrum spirals revolve around getting my dwarves to be unhappy, with killing them all at once; and once one gets mad, having him be anywhere near my other dwarves.

Playing with easy to piss off goblins, I've had plenty of fun.  In the first year, a fireman killed three people, and the next goblin to meet him went on a tantrum and obliterated it, then started throwing the pieces at another goblin before punching him to an inch of his life.  Consequently, goblin 2 formed a grudge on goblin 1, who latter was left having to bring food and water to him.  Since goblins don't helping people, this really pissed him, and he'd go on periodic tantrums again about once a season, even beating up the same guy a couple more times as he lay in bed.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2009, 07:38:09 am by Aqizzar »
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anomaly

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Re: Tantrum Spirals: The good, the bad, the ugly
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2009, 02:42:07 pm »

i've intentionally tried to tantrum a fortress that had a meeting area and plenty of time to let people get acquainted with each other.

i gave up eventually and just spike trapped everyone.  well, everyone except for the lever operator.  who didn't seem to be bothered much by the whole ordeal.  maybe he was a new arrival.
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jester

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Re: Tantrum Spirals: The good, the bad, the ugly
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2009, 09:38:55 pm »

Jesters patent tantrum inducing fortress: 
1.  refuse piles on every coner (non rotting items disabled)
2. no beds
3. no doors (they block miasma)
4. every season activate then deactivate all non military at least twice.
5. no dining room.
6. if you can get them, caged undead in your statue garden/graveyard (no coffins)
7. coin stockpiles with no bins in the statue garden/near foodstockpile (steel coins preferebly)
8. arm everybody.  If you can lock them all inside and activate the hunting labour then hand out crossbows to everyone you can, if not, woodcutting labour and axes is fine.
9. sherrif but no jail, beatings will help with unhappy wounded dwarves once things get going.
10. grow nothing but plump helmets (make booze, things get too slow otherwise)

  works best on a fort that has 100+ occupants already for maximum ummm.... fun.
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