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Author Topic: A habit of poor fortress design  (Read 4365 times)

ZeroGravitas

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Re: A habit of poor fortress design
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2009, 03:54:37 pm »

I have the worst of both underplanning AND overplanning.

I've gotten to the point where I know most of the "tricks of the trade". Utilize z-levels instead of spreading out, use wide hallways, put similar workshops together, manipulate food/drink/seed stockpiles to increase efficiency, etc.  I'll plan out a pretty good design that utilizes this stuff, but I'll wind up looking ahead just one step too few.

A good example is in my current fort.  Recently, as part of my overarching fortress plan, I began expanding upwards...and found out the hard way that one of the stairwells would cut through the already-built and fully-engraved King's quarters.  So now, thanks to not planning far enough ahead, I have to either move the entire stairwell or leave it broken on that level.  Unfortunately, thanks to planning so far ahead, moving the stairwell would require moving it AND two others AND gutting and reconstructing a significant fraction of almost every single z-level :-[

Heh, I have this problem too. Sometimes I have a really cool designed fortress, but I don't grasp certain implications until too late. This can create humorous situations, especially in environments like magma pipes built in glaciers: 6 dwarves killed by magma and 2 more simultaneously encased in ice.
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Arvidsem

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Re: A habit of poor fortress design
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2009, 04:28:01 pm »

Personally I build a grid based on 3x3 rooms, 5 long and 2 high with 3-wide hallways. Each hallway intersection gets 4 up/down staircases. Since I use the hallway grid everywhere, I have no problems with traffic. If it's crowded dwarves just go up or down a z-level. For larger rooms like nobles, and various stockpiles I'll connect together several/all of the rooms in a block. Also two of these blocks make a square.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Nikov

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Re: A habit of poor fortress design
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2009, 05:32:35 pm »

I personally have taken a three phase approach to fortress construction with Heatfury (http://mkv25.net/dfma/map-4565-vushthusest), and it has yielded very good results. The three phases are;

Outpost
   In the Outpost phase, the dwarves are directed to build a walled camp above ground, using existing terrain as much as possible. Underground farms are hastily made using the pond designation and bucket teams. Metalworking is largely charcoal-fired and the primary goal is to have everything dwarves need to survive and begin developing the skills needed for Transition work, namely carpentry, masonry, engraving and mining.

Transition
   Once sufficient dwarfpower is aquired and miners are largely of a high skill level, construction of the fortress proper begins. Dwarves dig out multi-level spaces in the mountain with stairs while engravers smooth and engrave behind them. The Legendary Dining Hall is constructed and food preparation and stores are shifted to within the fortress. Masonry and stonecrafting shops are also set up to deal with the glut of stone.

Fortress
   Once the underground farm is established within the fortress, workshops are removed from the outpost and the old compound is left only as a military installation, if applicable. Meanwhile dwarves begin to live entire years underground and even the trade caravan is brought to within the fortress. At this point the dwarf fortress can grow carefully with nobleman's quarters, magma smelters and the slow growth of dwarven population purely through childbirth. The example given, Vushthustest, is within the early Fortress stage. As soon as the wells to the cave river are complete, the dwarves can seal the gates permanently should they so desire, abandoning the outpost completely.

In short, immediately setting out to build your grand design is foolhardy. Only after meeting the basic dwarven needs of beds, booze and bread can you set out for the Epic Fortress you set out to build.
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Skizelo

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Re: A habit of poor fortress design
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2009, 05:44:12 pm »

One tip I have is to build your workshop destirct above an empty level, then have downward staircases right on the workshop's doorstop leading to the relevant stockpile. Oh, if you do this, consider where you put the magma workshops and be very careful when channelling it in. I once lost a huge stockpile of ores due to a stupid designation.
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Hyndis

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Re: A habit of poor fortress design
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2009, 06:03:47 pm »

Here are two of my more recent forts:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

You can see the plumbing on the other Z levels here:
http://s212.photobucket.com/albums/cc254/hyndis/dwarf%20fortress/


Note that in the second fort I hadn't yet been able to dig out a residential area for the common dwarves. I have two noble suites up and running, but the common dwarves still use the barracks.

In the first fort, you can see the residential section. Every dwarf has a 3x3 room with a bed, a chest, and a cabinet.

Also, notice that there is a great hall from which the rest of the fort branches off. This is the meeting zone, and it also provides outstanding security. For a thief to access my stockrooms, the thief must make his way through the meeting zone, which is invariably full of off-duty soldiers, guards, and war dogs. Any burglary attempts are extremely short lived. In the first fort you can see I have the ideal setup for each wing, with the meeting zone in the middle. The west wing is residential, easy is food, and south is industrial.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2009, 06:08:10 pm by Hyndis »
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Dareon Clearwater

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Re: A habit of poor fortress design
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2009, 09:26:43 pm »

Stairways are my bottlenecks.  I generally have the bright idea that 1 stairway will be fine for my entire fort or whatever remarkably-high-traffic area I have.  I generally wind up expanding it into a set of four after a month of watching Dwarven Twister. (Left leg... vomit!  Right hand... kitten blood spatter!)

My bedroom design is very modular, though.  I generally have lattices of 3-wide hallways, with 3x3 rooms.  If I need to expand, I remove the furniture from one room, remove its doorway walls, and extend the hallway that way.
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winner

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Re: A habit of poor fortress design
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2009, 09:50:18 pm »

Just a note - be wary if you design most of your fortress on paper before embarking! The first time I did this, I immediately paused the game upon embark, and did mining designations for my ENTIRE FORT before unpausing. Not smart. Even though I brought three proficient miners, it took them a year or more to dig out all the necessary areas to make the fort livable. I refused to un-designate certain areas, or make certain areas inaccessible, BECAUSE IT WAS PERFECT DAMMIT. My dwarves spent the year sleeping by the trade depot outside, fighting off attacks by foul blendecs and werewolves. I lost all my war dogs and one of my dwarves before the fort was livable, and all the rest were about to snap from unhappy thoughts.

Everything worked out, though, and within a couple years we were booming, my hunters were accidently killing dragons, and a single legendary wrestler/speardwarf was making sieges trivial.
would you mind uploading a map of your perfect fort?
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LegoLord

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Re: A habit of poor fortress design
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2009, 09:58:02 pm »

I have a usual fort design;  If you check out my post on the Post your Fort thread, you can see what it looks like.  Just ignore the more "megaproject" looking parts.
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Nesoo

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Re: A habit of poor fortress design
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2009, 11:02:08 pm »

I apparently have the horrible opposite of what you have. I plan too much and end up with inefficient fortresses because of a style I'm trying to achieve.

 "No, the housing district cannot be made yet. We still need to dig out the 100x100x20 tile empty space!"

This is my problem. My dwarves have been working on smoothing the cliff for something like 2 years now... I haven't even carved out the entrance yet. The poor little buggers are just sleeping in a barracks and using temporary soil rooms that will eventually be demolished once I finally get the actual fort going.

I also tend to look around the area and then plan out the entire fort (with designations and notes) before I even unpause the game. This frequently results in me playing for several hours before anything ever happens...
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Pixelfish

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Re: A habit of poor fortress design
« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2009, 01:13:13 am »

I'm a stickler for aethetics. I actually don't often have any thing enabled for hauling other then food and lumber other then when I'm collecting things for merchant caravans.

I also always build my dwarves above ground dwellings because if I see one speck of vomit I become furious and try to track down and 're educate' the dwarf responsible. 2-3 years permant guard duty tends to make them think before they spray.
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Sir_Geo

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Re: A habit of poor fortress design
« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2009, 01:30:47 am »

In my recent fortresses I've taken to making towers about the size of a magma pipe. The individual bedrooms are all underground, stockpiles/workshops are above ground. It is pretty space efficient   :D
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http://mkv25.net/dfma/map-5403-fortressdipped
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Foa

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Re: A habit of poor fortress design
« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2009, 01:48:41 am »

I have similar phases as... Rick? Hyndis.

First there is the outpost, a clusterfuck of rooms, and workshops, and the other essentials ( Depot, Hall of Meeting, and The Anti-Depressant Uber Hall )

When forces have achieved greater greatness, I start out creating an obsidian farm, and hollowing out a large space for the fort, and start grinding the troops, and civilian masons, the fort is started.

Please Note: Due to the fact that the fort is made out of blocks, it can be reformed as master plan unveils.

When the fort has it's basic districts ( Food, Farm, Housing ) the Dwarves make the perilous journey to the other side of the map. And then the Vault is started.

Please Note: The Vault is an impeccable district, able to isolate from the rest of the Fort and is impervious to any super force. It comes complete with every single need, including it's own militia and Magma Camp, to deal with any lingering threats.

Whenever there is a need, someone bleeds, and some one else gets walled in, thanks to the modularity of said fort, I can change it into any design needed, need some more Deep Blue Suites, Billy? No problem, just dig and mold. Need any more Forgetech slots, just adapt it to the Deep Blue Suites to test, and then you can use it in the Arena.

Spoiler: Arena (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Pass (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 02:26:41 am by Foa »
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tigrex

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Re: A habit of poor fortress design
« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2009, 05:42:32 am »

Use a modular approach.  Tunnel into a suitable mountain or cliffside, placing traps around the entrance.  As soon as you're deep enough inside, make a crossroads three tiles wide in all directions.  Build/dig at least one up/down stairs in the centre.

     #...#
     #...#
###....###
.......X......
.......X......
.......X.......
###...####
    #...#
    #...#

Now spread the resulting corridors out, digging rooms into the sides but never blocking the corridor.  Periodically make more crossroads so a crisscross pattern emerges.  Presto!  You'll always have easy access and no bottlenecks will emerge.  Expansion is no problem because you can always add on to the structure of the fort without disrupting the pattern.
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Phoenyx

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Re: A habit of poor fortress design
« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2009, 02:30:26 pm »

My style evolved partially from my desire to be adaptable, and partially from my lazyness when it comes to digging. I use shift-arrows to build 10x10 squares. Everything I make has to be able to fit within a combination of those squares. (8 simple 1x3 rooms, 4 3x3 work rooms/offices, a simple "noble suite" of two 3x3 office/dining room, and a 3x7 bedroom, etc).

To make sure everyone can get around, the squares are always separated by one space, and the intersections become home to four sets of stairs over all the levels.

Code: [Select]
###...###
###...###
###...###
....X....
...X.X...
....X....
###...###
###...###
###...###

It makes is very easy to lay out, add more. But I loose a lot in efficiency. I try to stack workshops above/below storage rooms. And the "food complex", so far, takes up a 2x2 mega-square. (And still expanding and I work on the concept). But I like how adaptable it is.
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Fikes

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Re: A habit of poor fortress design
« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2009, 02:43:40 pm »

I usually have a main enterance into the mountian 3 wide with a curve at the end. This leads to a 3x3 set of down stairways.

Right above this I build my outside meeting hall/tower. This almost completely eliminates cave adaptation.
On z-1 I have the main stockpiles and probably food/dinning
On z-2 I have the work shop areas
From z-3 - z-18 I have more storage, grave yards, and everything execpt workshops
On z-19 I have housing. This way there is never any noise to distrube the dwarves yet they only have to go 16-30 spaces to get to everything they need.

Here is the workshop level:

Code: [Select]
SSSSSS.....
SSSSSS.....
SSSSSS.....
SSSSSS.....
WWWWWW.....
WWWWWW.....
WWWWWW0...0
0000000...0
.......XXX.
.......XXX.
.......XXX.
0000000...0
s = raw materials stock pile
W = workshop
0 = walls
. = empty space

This should allow dwaves to easily drop off raw materials and pick up finished products.
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