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Author Topic: "Magic Versus Tech" Is Dumb.  (Read 12370 times)

Sean Mirrsen

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Re: "Magic Versus Tech" Is Dumb.
« Reply #90 on: January 05, 2010, 05:00:00 pm »

Techniques in my Multiworlds 'verse are on a fine line between tech-like magic and magic-like tech. The base principles of their work are relatively well-known, making them explainable like technology. But they operate by breaching known science laws, remaining magic to anyone who doesn't know how they work. Minor techs have become technology, like efficient nanoscale construction, but more complex techs remain known exclusively to tech users.
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Multiworld Madness Archive:
Game One, Discontinued at World 3.
Game Two, Discontinued at World 1.

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RAM

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Re: "Magic Versus Tech" Is Dumb.
« Reply #91 on: January 05, 2010, 07:17:25 pm »

'Magic is the result of scientifically verifiable principles' is something that while exceeding difficult to avoid can spoil the fun if you were hoping that magic would grant you the freedom of a fundamentally mysterious element.
 Possible avoidances of it are "magic is based on belief" such as the World of Darkness mentioned previously that produces magic from a shared belief medium that, outside of controlled conditions, would be largely unpredictable due to the conflicting beliefs of all involved(Ironically magic is probably the natural state, with science being maintained by the expectations of the majority of humans.).
 'Magic is alive' is another way of limiting understanding of it, although this tends to risk favouritism on the author's part. It could be the result of deities granting magic, or fundamental properties of the universe having wills, or magic being a distinct entity itself. If the entity is sufficiently aware that it knows about any scientific study of it, it can deliberately thwart any such efforts...
 'Magic is no longer possible' could work, where magical relics are advanced technology that were created prior to some sort of event that altered the nature of the universe in some way that makes it impossible to make any more.
 'Magic is random' is unpopular because it leaves magic as little more than comic relief. But leaving magic as a chaotic force that is little more than an on/off switch to causality would be largely impossible to predict.

There are, basically, two different reasons to have magic. The first, is to give your scientists new abilities. You could argue that this form of magic is rife in many science fiction settings...
 The other is to escape the rules of science, and this form will lose its freedom if people start analysing it too much...
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Il Palazzo

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Re: "Magic Versus Tech" Is Dumb.
« Reply #92 on: January 06, 2010, 03:51:41 am »

Spoiler: a wall of text (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 04:07:07 am by Il Palazzo »
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andrea

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Re: "Magic Versus Tech" Is Dumb.
« Reply #93 on: January 06, 2010, 05:07:45 am »

as I see it, magic can never break laws of the universe it exists in, because if they are broken they aren't truly universal laws. You may say " but that breaks law x, that is impossible!"; well, that works for our universe. and that is why law x, assuming it is true, never gets broken. because it is impossible.
If we observed something ( magic in this case) breaking a law of nature, then all it shows is that there is some greater law it obeys to.
And magic would be studied just like we study engineering or something like that. they would learn the foundations, study lots of boring things, then, after a long time of school, practice. Not that different. You think magic is all cool and powerful, but that is because you can't really observe it here. If it existed, it would be object of research and study like everything else and it would seem normal.

So, in my opinion, magic is what can't exist in our universe but exists in another, fictional, one. If something "magic" is proved to exist, then it would no longer be magic, but just another tiny bit of our knowledge.

Neruz

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Re: "Magic Versus Tech" Is Dumb.
« Reply #94 on: January 06, 2010, 05:20:03 am »

'Magic' is merely a label we apply to things we do not understand. Nothing more. Nothing less.


When the Magician pulls the card out of the stack that i chose, if i don't know how he did it, it's magic. If i know how the trick works, it's not magic anymore, just knowledge.


If a man places a small black box on the ground which explodes violently at his command, destroying houses and killing people in seconds, it seems like magic. If i know that the box is an explosive and he used a remote detonater, it's not magic anymore.

Sean Mirrsen

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Re: "Magic Versus Tech" Is Dumb.
« Reply #95 on: January 06, 2010, 05:34:45 am »

I can take a minigun and destroy all followers of a certain god. This is exaggerating, of course, but the point stands. Unless gods can manifest themselves to stop you, you can affect the gods through their followers with any technology you want.

Again, you take the divine and mystical approach to magic. This is just one of the possible control mechanisms or power sources, not magic in itself. Magic can exist in the absense of gods, it's just an effect of the human perception of events happening in the world. At some point, lightnings were magic, display of gods' powers. But we know better now. Once technology can harness the more elusive properties of the universe, there will be no limit to its raw power. Go find and read a web-novel called "The Salvation War", it delves into these ideas. As far as I'm concerned, there's only one true explanation of magic, it's "weird stuff we don't know how to do yet".

(double-ninja'd, this was a response to Il Palazzo)
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"Europe has to grow out of the mindset that Europe's problems are the world's problems, but the world's problems are not Europe's problems."
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andrea

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Re: "Magic Versus Tech" Is Dumb.
« Reply #96 on: January 06, 2010, 05:36:06 am »

@neruz
I think that is different from magic in fantasy worlds. While in general I agree with you, it is important to remember that the "magic" we see here is what we don't know, but also what we can, in the future, learn ourselves. A magic trick is nice, but we know there must be an explanation, no matter how strange it is. Same for the black box bomb or anything we will ever see. We can't explain it, but eventually we might be able to.

Magic in fantasy worlds, however, is something we will never be able to explain correctly, because in our world it is totally impossible.

Il Palazzo

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Re: "Magic Versus Tech" Is Dumb.
« Reply #97 on: January 06, 2010, 06:12:05 am »

Hmmm, seems like you guys are collectivelly missing my point.

@andrea: if there are only universal and unbreakable laws at work, then there can be no magic. Everything you percieve as magical in that setting can fall under the definition of technology, understood as manipulating the existing laws of the universe. What makes magic "magical" is exactly that it can ad hoc alter the very existence of the world, by the virtue of drawing on the same primal force from which the world has been created. The whole point is that there are no greater laws governing magic. You can't learn it like you do with physics.

@Neruz: same as above, what you call magic is merely a hole in the knowledge of laws governing the universe. This view of magic is not in opposition of technology, merely because it also belong to the field of technology, the part which remains yet undiscovered. I believe that the topic is to compare magic and tech which are indeed separated by their nature, not just misleading nomenclature.

@Sean Mirrsen: well, ok, the conclusion about affecting gods with magic only wasn't relly well justified, I suppose there isn't really any logical reason why e.g. godslaying couldn't be performed using just the laws of the world the god in question resides in. It seems mostly a matter of gods being magically powerful, and so, with magic trumping technology, hard to kill. As for the rest of your post, it's the same response as the above.
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Sean Mirrsen

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Re: "Magic Versus Tech" Is Dumb.
« Reply #98 on: January 06, 2010, 06:23:51 am »

Magic in fantasy worlds can only be explained in fantasy worlds. Even science and technology in fantasy worlds can frequently be explained only within those worlds. There's a webcomic called Unicorn Jelly. The fundamental physical laws in its universe are completely different. When they try to find justification for apparent differences in world structure within our universe, they fail miserably.

Il Palazzo, if magic is playing calvinball with the universe, then it's a law in and of itself. There are basic, universal laws out there. Unbreakable. Unchangeable. We know nothing of them. They are so closely tied with the very existence itself that changing just one will cause a catastrophic existence failure across half the universe. Thus, magic cannot change them. Maybe it can seem to alter them locally, but it cannot change them, or there will be none left to appreciate it.
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Game One, Discontinued at World 3.
Game Two, Discontinued at World 1.

"Europe has to grow out of the mindset that Europe's problems are the world's problems, but the world's problems are not Europe's problems."
- Subrahmanyam Jaishankar, Minister of External Affairs, India

Neruz

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Re: "Magic Versus Tech" Is Dumb.
« Reply #99 on: January 06, 2010, 06:25:04 am »

@neruz
I think that is different from magic in fantasy worlds. While in general I agree with you, it is important to remember that the "magic" we see here is what we don't know, but also what we can, in the future, learn ourselves. A magic trick is nice, but we know there must be an explanation, no matter how strange it is. Same for the black box bomb or anything we will ever see. We can't explain it, but eventually we might be able to.

Magic in fantasy worlds, however, is something we will never be able to explain correctly, because in our world it is totally impossible.

Not really; the same applies. We don't know how the Wizard conjures a fireball, so it's magic.


Some fantasy universes do go the whole way to carefully explain how magic works in their universes, what makes it tick, and in those cases it's pretty much magic only because that's what the author calls it and it has no real functional difference from 'science' or 'technology'.

Neruz

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Re: "Magic Versus Tech" Is Dumb.
« Reply #100 on: January 06, 2010, 06:26:03 am »

Magic in fantasy worlds can only be explained in fantasy worlds. Even science and technology in fantasy worlds can frequently be explained only within those worlds. There's a webcomic called Unicorn Jelly. The fundamental physical laws in its universe are completely different. When they try to find justification for apparent differences in world structure within our universe, they fail miserably.

Il Palazzo, if magic is playing calvinball with the universe, then it's a law in and of itself. There are basic, universal laws out there. Unbreakable. Unchangeable. We know nothing of them. They are so closely tied with the very existence itself that changing just one will cause a catastrophic existence failure across half the universe. Thus, magic cannot change them. Maybe it can seem to alter them locally, but it cannot change them, or there will be none left to appreciate it.

Do note that you are making the potentially erronious assumption that these laws can be changed.

Sean Mirrsen

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Re: "Magic Versus Tech" Is Dumb.
« Reply #101 on: January 06, 2010, 06:32:41 am »

Since the universe has repeatedly proven to us that nothing is eternal, absolute, or unbreakable, I suspect even the very basic laws can be circumvented at some point. For example, aluminium, like most metals, is opaque to X-rays. Under specific conditions and with a certain level of power behind the X-ray, it becomes transparent to them. I won't be surprised if some very specific circumstances can override the conservation of mass or energy, or that mass produces gravity, or some other basic stuff.
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Game One, Discontinued at World 3.
Game Two, Discontinued at World 1.

"Europe has to grow out of the mindset that Europe's problems are the world's problems, but the world's problems are not Europe's problems."
- Subrahmanyam Jaishankar, Minister of External Affairs, India

Neruz

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Re: "Magic Versus Tech" Is Dumb.
« Reply #102 on: January 06, 2010, 06:45:04 am »

All that proves is that we still don't really understand the laws behind the universe, not that these laws are malleable.

Hell, the mere existence of Quantum Physics proves that we don't know what the fuck we're doing. Einstein worked that out fifty years ago.

Il Palazzo

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Re: "Magic Versus Tech" Is Dumb.
« Reply #103 on: January 06, 2010, 06:54:23 am »

Damn, I'm not getting through to you guys.

I'm not advocating the existence of magic. I'm merely defining it's meaning. What most of you continously call magic, i.e.the unknown, does not deserve that name. Look at the past ages, there were people calling themselves mages, and people who believed their claims, not only because they were ignorant fools, who never did a physics course, but because the reality of the world as they believed it to be logically pointed to the possibility of magic. I'm talking about all those people with the polytheistic belief system I mentioned earlier.

@Sean M.: I don't know what did the universe throw at you to make you believe that it's laws can be circumvented, and are actually breakable. For one, the example with aluminium you provided does not prove that. If anything, it's repeatability proves that it's a hard law of the universe itself. Surprisingly, the conclusion you draw from it is the very definition of magic I was describing - it's the power which can "circumvent" laws of physics.
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andrea

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Re: "Magic Versus Tech" Is Dumb.
« Reply #104 on: January 06, 2010, 07:24:05 am »

I read your reply, Il palazzo, and that is exactly what I meant. It isn't magic, it is science. we call it magic and not science because it would need to break or otherwise avoid fundamental laws of our universe and so it can't be science for us. But if in another universe it was possible to lift things with your mind, then it would be no more strange for them than for example jumping is for us. It would be a natural thing with its explanations and mechanisms.
We call that magic because in the way we perceive our universe, such a thing can't happen. if it happens, it is just a deficit of our knowledge and eventually we will stop calling it magic because we will see how it works.
Lets imagine that in an universe oil doesn't burn. they would call a combustion engine magical, but we surely wouldn't, because it can be explained and has been done.
What we can't explain in our idea of the world at the moment is what we loosely call magic. what can't exist at all in our world, but can be thought of , is what can properly defined magic.

If you disagree, just put an "I" instead of " we " everytime I used it, because that is how I think it works: magic doesn't exist, because if it existed it could eventually be explained and used, at which point it would no longer be magic. In other imaginary worlds it can exist not because it would be magic for the people of that world, but because it is magic for us. As soon as magic exists, it stops being magic. It is magic only if it can't, therefore it doesn't, exist.
In a fantasy novel magic is called magic because for us it is magic. if we lived in that world, it would just be a normal thing of the world.
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