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[Sergius]

"It's silly" is not an valid argument.

Silly:

1archaic : helpless , weak
2 a: rustic , plain bobsolete : lowly in station : humble
3 a: weak in intellect : foolish b: exhibiting or indicative of a lack of common sense or sound judgment <a very silly mistake> c: trifling , frivolous
4: being stunned or dazed <scared silly> <knocked me silly>

I can understand why some settings are attracted to Magic versus Tech, but the rules to have them are just too artibrary and exist solely as an excuse to have this conflict to begin with. The conflict just lacks any sort of 'common sense'. It's quite dumb, and because it's dumb, I don't think it's a good setting for me.

If somebody shows me a setting about nazi dolphins attacking Europe with nukes, are you going to be surpised if I don't happen to treat the story seriously at all?

Why so serious? 

Seriously, I don't think you're required to take it seriously. My whole point is that these rules are arbitrary, and TBH neither approach is right or wrong. If you just WANT magic and tech not being incompatible, then just say so, but don't try to make it seem like it makes more sense for magic and tech to BE compatible, because magic, at all, is dumb.

Magic is dumb is dumb is dumb is dumb is dumb. No amount of getting bent over heels about it is going to change that.

That's like saying that leprechauns are ok, but leprechauns with UZIs is "just silly". Or in this case, "leprechauns make guns explode" is just silly.

[Qmarx]

If somebody shows me a setting about nazi dolphins attacking Europe with nukes, are you going to be surpised if I don't happen to treat the story seriously at all?

Whereas Soviet-trained war dolphins being sold to Iran is SERIOUS BUSINESS.



Basically, though, the issue boils down to it being extremely difficult to have "magic versus technology" as two fundamentally distinct forces and remain internally consistent.

I mean, swords are technology, right?  And we can have magic swords, right?

A magic versus tech battle could take place if we allow for some sort of interdimensional conflict thingy, but each side would be attempting to capture the other's materiel and reverse engineer it/enhance it for super soldier main characters.

[umiman]

That would interesting.

If such a situation were to occur, would the laws of the world depend on where the battle was fought? In that sense, if the magicians tried to battle in the dimension of technology, magic wouldn't exist and they'd be useless. Likewise, if science attempted to do battle in the realm of magic, the laws of physics would not apply and they'd be useless.

It would make the war pretty stupid.

If we were to suppose that the dimensions could merge... well... I'm not really sure how the laws of physics would work in a world where people can shoot fireballs from their hands and resurrect the dead. Magic would definitely have an advantage either way because of the nature of our definition for magic.

[Neonivek]

Magic is rarely a total incoherance to physics... but more often then not a whole system that overlaps with it in a few areas.

Which is why "It is magic" arguements annoy me... Mostly because the people took magic to mean "Just because" ignoring the fact that most settings don't make magic entirely above everything else.

For example... sure you made that peice of armor indestructable... But you see... I have this armor peircing rocket.

This is of course ignoring settings where magic and technology are indistinguishable from eachother... such as Exalted.

[Qmarx]

That would interesting.

If such a situation were to occur, would the laws of the world depend on where the battle was fought? In that sense, if the magicians tried to battle in the dimension of technology, magic wouldn't exist and they'd be useless. Likewise, if science attempted to do battle in the realm of magic, the laws of physics would not apply and they'd be useless.

It would make the war pretty stupid.

If we were to suppose that the dimensions could merge... well... I'm not really sure how the laws of physics would work in a world where people can shoot fireballs from their hands and resurrect the dead. Magic would definitely have an advantage either way because of the nature of our definition for magic.

The base assumption would have to be that magic existed all along in the sciency world, but nobody was ever able to harness it to meaningful effect.  Similarly, the development of magic would hinder the creation of corresponding technology (less incentive to develop guns and such).

One limit on the standard magic setting is the typical assumption that not everyone has magical ability, so their available troops would be more limited, if more powerful individually.  Assuming that this isn't a stupidly magical (Xanth-class) fantasy milieu, there isn't going to be a good counter to ballistic missiles or other ridiculously long-range weaponry.

[Earthquake Damage]

Similarly, the development of magic would hinder the creation of corresponding technology (less incentive to develop guns and such).

I think that's the rationale behind the level of technology in the Forgotten Realms and similar D&D settings (the real reason being "swords and crossbows are cool..."  and they are...).  Though TBH I don't see why such worlds would be even that advanced.

[Neonivek]

Similarly, the development of magic would hinder the creation of corresponding technology (less incentive to develop guns and such).

I think that's the rationale behind the level of technology in the Forgotten Realms and similar D&D settings (the real reason being "swords and crossbows are cool..."  and they are...).  Though TBH I don't see why such worlds would be even that advanced.

The Technology in Forgotten Realms wasn't held back by magic... Afterall technology is quite advanced.

The issue is that Mages and Clerics dont generally want to share their gifts with the world and hoard to themselves.

[RAM]

There are some words that people like to throw around alot but don't like to define, magic is one of these. It can be just about anything, from things happening because people want them to, to some sort of balance being altered and correcting, or interactions between spirits(personified or abstract or combinations or anything really) and the tangible world and extra forms of technology such as additional physical laws or alien technology that observers(and probably users) are ignorant of. Magic generally does not require devices to function, though they often assist. Magic generally has more mechanisms, fire is pretty much always a function of increasing temperature, but magic can gather surrounding heat into a fireball, or ignite your breath with your spirit, or be distilled from the union of sulphur and brimstone, or even just kidnapped from the fire world.

But science and magic have a great deal to offer each other. Magical repulsion can create near frictionless environments, produce magical constructs that outperform physical constructs, or provide perpetual energy sources. While science can refine magical materials and practices, create companion tools to conserve magic(Telescope to save on remote viewing) or refine its use(telescope to aim a lightning strike), or even manipulate magic itself, such as lenses to focus a death beam or a catapult that throws otherwise static spells.
 I don't really see a situation in which the two cannot benfit from cooperation unless one can render the other redundant. Even if magic causes the physical laws to randomise, there should still be some fields in which magic has an advantage that scientific communities would benefit from, and even if belief in science lessens the potency of magic, surely scientific devices could be implied to be magical to the general public. But it is an obvious divide and makes about as much sense as the typical enmity between dwarves and elves that exists in many settings...


P.S.
 *sews together thread and leaves it out in a lightning storm.* "It's alive! It's ALIVE!!!"
 *Stands above thread's grave and makes arcane gestures.*"Rise my minion, rise and do my bidding!"

[Virex]

I think the distinction stems back to the general idea people have behind science and Magic. Science is the search for the why. Why do apples fall down? Why do people fall in love? Why does a building made from talc fall apart? These are all things that can be researched, but this research also causes a feeling of a cold, analytical world. If love is explained, people feel it loses it's importance.

Magic, on the other hand is that where the why-question is unawnserable and this irrelevant. Magic is freed from science's cold drive to understand and analyse and is instead something that is based upon intuition. We can't explain it and we won't ever explain it so you'll have to go by gut feelings. This is somewhat comforting to people, since gut-feeling is much more accesible and tangiable then an electron microscope. That's why in most stories, technology is protrayed as lifeless and evil, whle magic is ascociated with good, nature, peace and hope. It's the personification of people's subconscious want to controll the world and force it into a paradise without having to resort to the cold, feeling-destroying nature of technology.

This is a similar effect to what's seen in new-age groups. Frankly, some of the ideas vented there are, from a scientific standpoint, utter bogus and people know it. Yet they cling to it, because they feel that science lifeless view can't grasp the world they feel they live in.

I know many of you are going to respond to a lot of my points with "Not true! Doesn't have to be! BOO!", but take a step back and think. I am not saying how the world is, but instead I am trying to explain how a lot of people think. I myself find the mystical concepts that reject science somewhat unsetteling, because they imply that there is no way to generalise events and thus to predict what's comming (and electron microscopes feel natural to me ). Instead they assume the world is guesswork to us. But this doesn't change the fact that many seem to think differently.

[Sean Mirrsen]

I think that Magic is everything that exists. Science is a subset of that, basically everything that Science explains constitutes Science. Science defines its own limits, and expands in areas it deems possible. Anything Science can't get a grip on, remains Magic.

For example, most of the world is Science, because Science has found explanations for stuff existing. The Earth's existence is part of Science, because there are theories about its creation from space dust. However, people can think outside Science - thus, Religion exists, that has Earth created by God - an act of Magic, essentially.

[LeoLeonardoIII]

It may look like there's something magical in the way a cold hard seed sprouts into a plant, or all the little subsystems humming along in your body. But when you inspect further down there are explanations.

So I'd say if a scientist examined a magician and inspected with his instruments, he'd find some cause for the magical effects. The midi-chlorian thing for example.

But if he couldn't find anything, that just means he has the wrong instruments. A magician can detect magic, right? And presumably, detect other magicians. This is how the wizened old man finds a young apprentice working on the family turnip farm. So the magician has instruments that can analyze magic, and so find the root causes and methods of it.

At first blush you'd say the magician's stuff doesn't have to work the same way the scientist's stuff does. But there's no reason why they'd be different. After all, when the magician conjures up some ice, the ice still melts. Unless it's kept cold by continued application of magic, that is. Once you figure out where the ice came from, everything fits with known scientific laws.

So it's not like magic needs to be some separate mystical thing. It's just a separate set of instruments and has its own laws which are not mutually exclusive with those of the traditional scientist.

That said, if you go to college for 12 years to become a physicist, you should have to go to college for 12 years to become a magician of the same caliber. If your country already has a large population of physicists, it's easier to train new ones. Likewise for magicians. For that reason it may take a long time for a country specialized in one to grow into the other.

Societal pressures may inhibit a shift as well. Perhaps being a magician isn't seen as an honorable or otherwise valued profession. Or maybe there are religious strictures against it. Perhaps the laws governing magic are more strict because of an earlier, more conservative government.

It's also likely that if magic were more useful than non-magical technology, traditional scientists would interfere with it because they'd quickly become useless. When a magician can conjure an Unseen Servant to code for him 24 hours a day, or create detailed 3D holograms for an architectural firm, who is going to learn to program or learn CAD? You're better off just becoming a magician instead.

Because of this I'm more intrigued by why not everyone in a fantasy world is a magician. Given the opportunity you'd obviously choose that career. If it's an issue of people being born with it or not, I'm sure magicians could alter a baby to become magic-capable. And of course there are always people who lack natural aptitude and ambition, who are unable to achieve those things.

But if a magician can magically automate, say, a grocery store checkstand, why wouldn't he? The store pays three employees $16k a year each to man that workstation. If they have a magician automate the checkstand for a duration of one year they can afford to pay him $40k and still save $8k per year.

Once everything is automated, what do the dumb and lazy do? There are no jobs for them. Society would have to change. In that environment of absolute plenty, would the non-magicians form an underclass without the resources to interact with the money economy? Dystopian, unless you're a magician.

Or would anyone who wanted something just be provided with it? What if a few magicians decided to wander around buying property and installing vending machines that gave out free low-quality clothes, food, and drink?

Would there be laws concerning how much time you could spend in a holo-deck? Maybe no holo-deck on Sundays?

[Nadaka]

That would interesting.

If such a situation were to occur, would the laws of the world depend on where the battle was fought? In that sense, if the magicians tried to battle in the dimension of technology, magic wouldn't exist and they'd be useless. Likewise, if science attempted to do battle in the realm of magic, the laws of physics would not apply and they'd be useless.

It would make the war pretty stupid.

If we were to suppose that the dimensions could merge... well... I'm not really sure how the laws of physics would work in a world where people can shoot fireballs from their hands and resurrect the dead. Magic would definitely have an advantage either way because of the nature of our definition for magic.

Yes, at least in Mage:The Ascension.

The technocracy tends to win battle fought in cities where the belief of the people support their technological philosophy. While the magi tend to win in the dreams-cape and other realms where magic is more real. In the wilderness, its up to the superior will of either side because the only belief that matters is those of the combatants. That or they all get munched on by werewolves and vampires who don't give a damn if you believe in them or not.

[deadlycairn]

I really think the whole argument depends on the setting, and without defining a clear setting we can't really explain it.

If EVERYONE had magical abilities, an often rare premise, then it makes sense that it would replace technology to some extent, as people could use magic for most of their day to day needs we use machines for.

If only a few people have magic, there is a need for machines to do some tasks. Are the magicians trusted? If not, the machines will probably be taken in with open arms. If they are trusted, do the magicians approve of these machines? After all, the machines are taking their jobs.

Maybe another, warlike, race with fewer magicians relies largely on machines, even using them as death-machines, and so the people have come to fear anything autonomous?

Maybe a peaceful race with no wizards, and thus a lot of machinery, has had bad contact with a rampaging wizard. Such is the way distrust, then animosity, then war could form between the two groups. I've always seen the Magic vs. Technology as more of a political or religious thing than anything else - people can't seem to get along.


Another note of interest - maybe the reason fantasy worlds rarely progress beyond medieval technologies is because all of their great thinkers - their world's Socrates, Plato, Ben Franklin etc. devote their time to studying the laws of magic rather than the laws that govern the physical world?


And finally, Final Fantasy seems to be good at averting this. In all the ones I've played, technology and magic seem to co-exist in relative harmony (at the very least, technology can harness magic)

[Sergius]

Because of this I'm more intrigued by why not everyone in a fantasy world is a magician. Given the opportunity you'd obviously choose that career. If it's an issue of people being born with it or not, I'm sure magicians could alter a baby to become magic-capable. And of course there are always people who lack natural aptitude and ambition, who are unable to achieve those things.

But if a magician can magically automate, say, a grocery store checkstand, why wouldn't he? The store pays three employees $16k a year each to man that workstation. If they have a magician automate the checkstand for a duration of one year they can afford to pay him $40k and still save $8k per year.

You pretty much just described the D&D Eberron setting.

[ChairmanPoo]

 I meditate to regain my mana, before casting Lvl. 8 chicken of the Infinite