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[Il Palazzo]

So, in other words, these psionics are sciencists trying to discover the laws of the universe. Those who fall behind are at a disadvantage because they're still using the more-incomplete theories.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Most of the time, yes. Some make the discoveries for pure science, and share them. Most keep them for themselves, for the occasional duel. It's not very widespread in the setting, not until the later ages after TGoTW when stuff settles down and this becomes common knowledge. Humanity pioneered the concept, strangely enough, even though the Mii'Ari are supposed to be the most curious and the Doleans the most scientifically apt.

Now that I look at this, it seems terribly similar to Naruto. What with researching jutsu and stuff...

The processes are not used in everyday technology for an obvious reason - only the innate Psi energy is fine enough to trigger the effects, therefore it is impossible to fully automate the process so that inept people could use it. In addition to the resistance, which makes learning the stuff painfully slow, many people's innate psi levels are weak and can't even manifest. It's a little unfair, since it means that becoming even a weak tech user is not for everyone. Furthermore, "powerlevelling" weak users with items charged by powerful ones rarely works, since the activation command has to be fairly specific and often ends up tied to the signature of the person doing the charging. And the process can't be interrupted and has to be done in one sitting. It's complicated like that.

Damn, I wish my writing skills were half as good as the plan I made for the universe... I could make a book about it in no time.

[LegoLord]

Did He go away? He did? Are you sure? Oh... NO I WAS NOT HIDING FROM THE TOADY ONE I WAS LOOKING FOR MY KEYS THANK YOU.

Why do you fear the Toad, cookie man?

[Mikko]

Did He go away? He did? Are you sure? Oh... NO I WAS NOT HIDING FROM THE TOADY ONE I WAS LOOKING FOR MY KEYS THANK YOU.

Why do you fear the Toad, cookie man?

I'm afraid that he is afraid of my buttsecs jokes.

[deadlycairn]

I'm a fan of the Magic versus Technology (my excuse is simple - Magic affects technology. Noone quite understands why. (I'm also a fan of the 'Magic breaks Laws science follows') However, I see nothing wrong with both using the other to their own advantage. Magicians use their knowledge of the way things work to devise ever more efficient spells (popping arteries or injecting air into the veins), while scientists try to utilise Magicians less world-breaking abilities for their own use. A scientist can't go around flinging fireballs, and a Magician can't surgically repair someone's fractured arm, but the scientist can use an enchanted gem he aquired combined with some machinery to make a mechanical fire-flinging arm, while the Magician can use his knowledge of anatomy to aid him in the (magical) healing process.

Also, thanks for adding to my quote collection Servant Corps

[Qmarx]

Edit: Back on topic, the manual of Arcanum, and some in-game materials spent many words to explain why they don't mix.

At the start of the manual, there're several pages explaining simple physics experiments like electricity flowing through a circuit lights up a blub, and a circular object rolls down a sloped surface. Then a source of magic is brought near to the physics experiments, and electricity started jumping through an open circuit and things roll up the slope.

Well, magic ought to be pretty simple then.  No wizards or magical creatures, since as soon as they accumulate anything the cells in their bodies become nonfunctional.


The only system I've seen that really tries to justify it is one where multiple spells interacting have small-scale unintended effects, typically restricted to accelerating a bunch of electrons to cosmic-ray-like velocities.  So if you enchant sufficiently delicate equipment, you have to be verrry careful to avoid other spells.  Otherwise electronics fall down go boom.

[Earthquake Damage]

While the notion of "magic versus technology" can make for fun fiction, it's an entirely preposterous notion.  Technology is not some mystical entity that can oppose or be opposed.  It's merely applied knowledge.

Magic cannot exist.  Period.  If what you would call magic exists, it's merely some set of phenomena you don't understand.  To wield it, you need to figure out how it works (knowledge) well enough to use it (applied knowledge -> technology).  In essence, when you use magic you're simply using technology of some sort.  So trying to claim that magic and technology are in conflict is silly.

Also, anyone who suggests that magic has no laws (thus you can't figure out how it works and so forth) is silly.  If it obeys no laws, then not only is it strictly impossible to consistently use it, but it will not produce meaningful effects either.  It would effectively be a random element in the universe.  You'd never encounter a fireball, as that's too ordered an event.  It's not random.  In fact, if it were random, with no bounds (no laws = no restrictions on the magnitude of any effects), it's quite reasonable to expect that it'd utterly overwhelm physical laws to the point that they may as well not exist.  The universe wouldn't have the necessary stability for anything you know to exist, including yourself.  In short, so-called magic must have rules simply because the universe bears some semblance of order.

That is all.

[Sean Mirrsen]

I think I covered all of that in my universe...

[Sergius]

"It's silly" is not an valid argument.

Non-adherence to real world mechanics is a big part of fantasy books, and if a fantasy book wants to say that Technology is some kind of ethereal anthropomorphic personification they may just as well do so.
 
Even saying that "laws can't be broken" is absurd, because (AND I agree this is true in the real world) a book/game/whatever's universe works exactly on whatever whims of the author.

About Tech vs. Magick, that is entirely a setting thing. If machines explode because they're tek-nuh-logickal and in the presence of magic, that's up to the author to say, so stop trying to apply real world physics to it. So what if the human body (or animal?) is also a machine? It's not "technological" if the author doesn't want it to be.

Realism in fiction is an oxymoron. What we want in our fiction is not to be realistic but to be INTERNALLY CONSISTENT. Like, if the fictional universe says that round things float because they are round, then goody and so be it but at least the author should keep track of it and apply it to every situation or at least explain why it didn't work that way in a specific case (or at the very least have people in-universe react to that inconsistency and review their physical "laws").

I've seen settings that combine tech and magic with no adverse effects. Take for instance the TV show Gargoyles: it is explained in many ways that technology and magic are pretty much the same thing. So an electric forcefield will protect everyone in a building from a city-wide sleep "spell", and a robot made from the melted remains of a magic cauldron becomes immune to magic. Hell, one character is a Frankenstein's monster made of several pieces of gargoyle stone brought to life with cybernetic replacements AND magic. Spells with weird dispel rules ("until the sky catches fire") are dispelled by dumping aircraft fuel over some clouds and igniting it.

In the D&D setting Iron Kingdoms, tech and magic is routinely combined to create magic items. A certain alloy made into coils and stuff is discovered to be able to contain raw "magic" in the form of a kind of battery, which can then be used to power weapons that have been engraved with "runes" etched in the form of logical circuits to provide effects like fire or "+1" to hit. Robots made entirely with steam technology (not powered by magic) are given a sort of cortex or brain which is a very complex metal thing (not just a crystal ball, the thing has to be carefully constructed) that works entirely on magic. Which then can be "hacked" by some special class of Wizard-warrior (who in turn wear a suit of magic/powered steam armor).

Phew, long post.

[PTTG??]

...
Non-adherence to real world mechanics is a big part of fantasy books, and if a fantasy book wants to say that Technology is some kind of ethereal anthropomorphic personification they may just as well do so.
 ...

I like it! It's the Magic Blue Smoke that they keep in chips to make them go math, which is why it stops math when it's escaped.

But yeah, I like the idea.

Another potential is that "magic" is a sapient thing, and is unpredictable because it's alive.

[Earthquake Damage]

"It's silly" is not an valid argument.

Would it have been better if I donned my Spock ears and called it "illogical" instead?

Non-adherence to real world mechanics is a big part of fantasy books

As I said, it can make for fun fiction.  It's still ridiculous.

My post generally addressed the concept as applied to thought experiments and "real life."  Fiction, on the other hand, is as fiction does (though to be honest I tend to prefer hard sci-fi to hand-wavey "then a miracle happens").

Also, if round things float because they're round, that implies not some natural law, but the existence of a powerful intelligent entity (read:  the author) fucking with things.  It has nothing to do with roundness and everything to do with intelligence.

Robots made entirely with steam technology

<3 Steampunk <3

Another potential is that "magic" is a sapient thing, and is unpredictable because it's alive.

Like the Force mixed with a fairy or something. 

"It's an energy field produced by all living things.  It's also insane and downright scary."

[Mephisto]

If there's one thing Silverfall game did decently, it was the tech vs nature argument. Magic was not exclusive to nature. Either side could use magic.

The tech side used guns and steam-powered equipment. They built giant zeppelins and machinery to utilize natural gas vents. I'm not sure what the nature side used as I saw them as a bunch of pansies. The argument was that nature didn't like tech because they had no regard for the environment. Tech didn't like nature because... some reason or another. I think it's just because they were pansies.

[Sergius]

"It's silly" is not an valid argument.

Would it have been better if I donned my Spock ears and called it "illogical" instead?

Well no, because it would be "vulcan logic" which in no way resembles real-world logic.

Logic: casting a spell drains mana. magic missile is a spell. therefore, casting magic missile drains mana.

Vulcan logic: there is no such thing as spells or mana. And casting stuff is illogical. And emotions are illogical. No you are illogical. No, you. No, your mom is illogical.

Read the last part of my post about "internally consistent". That's the meaning of "logical". Logical doesn't mean "I don't believe in fairies."

Non-adherence to real world mechanics is a big part of fantasy books

As I said, it can make for fun fiction.  It's still ridiculous.

My post generally addressed the concept as applied to thought experiments and "real life."  Fiction, on the other hand, is as fiction does (though to be honest I tend to prefer hard sci-fi to hand-wavey "then a miracle happens").

That is a matter of taste. You effectively are claiming that your taste is somehow superior to someone else's because yours is grounded in reality. Well, escapist fiction is NOT heavily grounded in reality and that's exactly what people look for when reading/playing it.

Also, if round things float because they're round, that implies not some natural law, but the existence of a powerful intelligent entity (read:  the author) fucking with things.  It has nothing to do with roundness and everything to do with intelligence.

Wrong in all counts. If things float because they're round in Magical Universe of the Floating Round Stuff, it in no way implies the existence of an outside intelligent entity (an entity that is not the Universe of Floating Round Stuff simply enforcing its rules), anymore than gravity pulling stuff down works in Gravity Pull Down Stuff Universe because there are some gnomes pulling stuff down. Otherwise it would be the Gnomes Pull Down Stuff Universe.

Robots made entirely with steam technology

<3 Steampunk <3

Can't disagree there

[Sean Mirrsen]

You should go read up on the Unicorn Jelly comic tucked away somewhere on the web.

It has both crackhead physics laws - like Linovection, everything is pulled down except objects above or below a certain size - and the magic vs tech argument, though for completely different reasons. It's great reading (and somewhat philosophical towards the end), so go find it.

The physical nature of the universe is strange, but very consistent with itself, and so logical. To us, stuff being pulled towards mass is the logical way. To them, tiny specks arranging themselves into triangles and ending up as gigantic floating islands when Linovection stops affecting them is logical. It's referenced in the final few strips of the main comic.

[Servant Corps]

"It's silly" is not an valid argument.

Silly:

1archaic : helpless , weak
2 a: rustic , plain bobsolete : lowly in station : humble
3 a: weak in intellect : foolish b: exhibiting or indicative of a lack of common sense or sound judgment <a very silly mistake> c: trifling , frivolous
4: being stunned or dazed <scared silly> <knocked me silly>

I can understand why some settings are attracted to Magic versus Tech, but the rules to have them are just too artibrary and exist solely as an excuse to have this conflict to begin with. The conflict just lacks any sort of 'common sense'. It's quite dumb, and because it's dumb, I don't think it's a good setting for me.

If somebody shows me a setting about nazi dolphins attacking Europe with nukes, are you going to be surpised if I don't happen to treat the story seriously at all?