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[Neonivek]

(has removed a stupid argument from the thread after a mod report, please try to keep it together)

Doesn't every topic end up in an arguement, followed by laughter and merry-making?

The problem is that it happens not only too often... but not as a natural progression of the thread.

Someone just walks in and says "Who likes pudding" and boom that is the topic. This really needs to stop.

BACK TO THE TOPIC AT HAND

In Shadowrun Technology and magic are not opposed to eachother EXACTLY (in fact one form of magic involves using the Internet)

But that using cybornetic parts eats up your character's soul and thus they cannot do as much magically and some forms of magic have less of an effect.

So Technology and souls are opposed to eachother

Though Technology and magic don't really mix too often... There isn't too much Magitek in Shadowrun. (Mind you... even the most technological advanced science center is bound to have magical protection... it is just that your not going to get science enhancing magic too often or vise versa probably due to its connection with soul)

[umiman]

You might not see magic combine with technology very often, but it's quite common to see technology combine with psychic energy or something along those lines.

I'm with the party that says that in a world where magic exists, it would be quite possible to categorize it as merely an extension of science anyway.

[Neonivek]

You might not see magic combine with technology very often, but it's quite common to see technology combine with psychic energy or something along those lines.

I'm with the party that says that in a world where magic exists, it would be quite possible to categorize it as merely an extension of science anyway.

That is true... Technologically enhanced psychic powers (Psychic powers are basically magic as explained by science most of the time) is VERY common. Heck Mass Effect was almost all this!

[umiman]

Other series with the psychic / tech combination include Warhammer, Red Alert, Sins of a Solar Empire, Star Trek, Star Wars (kinda...), Guitar Hero, Supreme Commander, some 3 billion or so various animes, and some 3 billion or so Korean MMOs.

Series with magic and technology being happy together include the Final Fantasy series, Dragonball, and.... I can't think of anything else.

[Toady One]

(in response, the stupid argument that was being removed had nothing to do with the topic, but was about somebody's face being dumb, nothing to see here, please note then ignore)

[Ioric Kittencuddler]

You don't need fancy magic machines to develop precognition!  You just need to have a near death experience!

[kcwong]

And actual explosives are just game breaking.

Yup, especially when explosives do not harm friendlies... you can compensate for insufficient throwing skill by throwing the explosives at your own foot*, while being surrounded by enemies... (-_-;)

The only problem with that build is the weight of the bombs and the constant need of going through all garbage bins every time you're in town to get ingredients for bomb making.

*With low throwing skill you can still miss your own foot by a very wide margin

Edit: Back on topic, the manual of Arcanum, and some in-game materials spent many words to explain why they don't mix.

At the start of the manual, there're several pages explaining simple physics experiments like electricity flowing through a circuit lights up a blub, and a circular object rolls down a sloped surface. Then a source of magic is brought near to the physics experiments, and electricity started jumping through an open circuit and things roll up the slope.

I think there was a D&D TV show with something similar too... some of the "players" go to learn magic, while some others rediscover how physics rules world and invent a new type of explosives.

And I guess the separation of magic and technology makes it easier to create opposing forces to use in plots or things for players to choose from...

[Mikko]

Did He go away? He did? Are you sure? Oh... NO I WAS NOT HIDING FROM THE TOADY ONE I WAS LOOKING FOR MY KEYS THANK YOU.

I personally am a tech freak. I never play with magicians if there is a possibility to play with someone who swings a glowing dildo and decapitates people.

[chaoticag]

The title just made me think about the Usenet Oracle response where Stephan Hawk and Merlin go head to head to replace the laws of physics:
(for reference)http://cgi.cs.indiana.edu/~oracle/bestof.cgi?N=126-150#135-08

But I really want to know the point of combining a lift with magic, as lifting the lift using magical energy will probably take more mana/energy/one power than lifting the person himself with a float spell.

Maybe if the machine could concentrate magic, but since magic is based on intelegence in most games, an AI would be needed to do so.

I don't think that reworking magic so that it could interact with technology would be a bad idea, but that we'll need to wrap our heads around a new system of magic altogether: things like overcasting and so forth as applied to machines and so on.

[Ioric Kittencuddler]

You could get magic to work with technology by simply not adding an arbitrary rule saying it doesn't.

[Sean Mirrsen]

My Multiworlds universe (specifically the main universe of The Greatest of The Wars) utilizes magic on both levels, but it is rarely called "magic" except by non-proficient people who rarely see the difference.

'Magic' in MW completely relies on precise understanding of physical laws and ways around them. It works with the concept that the universe is full of holes and exceptions to the laws, that you can utilize to great effect. Sort of like The Matrix, but without a supercomputer in the background. It goes along one of the two paths.

One path is Psionic Disciplines. These are used by people with low innate resistance to the flow of life force, referred to as Psi. They can channel Psi through their bodies, giving it shape and directing it through the imperfections of the universe to achieve certain effects. Disciplines are very freeform, and the only limiting factor is memory - a Psionic needs to instantly remember a massive sequence of events and effects required to produce the "spell". It doesn't have any other disadvantages, but has an advantage - since disciplines are activated on-the-fly, nothing is stopping the Psionic from chaining several effects together or altering their magnitude - effectively giving him infinite adaptability in combat.

The other path is Psionic Techniques. People who choose not to bother with remembering the disciplines or who have high resistance to Psi choose this route. They cannot easily channel Psi through their bodies, trying to do so causes severe damage to them. As such, they instead opt for 'preprogrammed' disciplines called Techniques. Channeling Psi at a slow rate, they infuse an item, usually something metallic, with a pattern of Psi effects. Once the patterns are set, it is only a matter of commanding the item to produce the effect, and it will comply. There are several drawbacks to the process, like only being able to create fixed-effect "spells" and having the same essential problem of high resistance - forcing to use either full-metallic clothing to gather Psi from the whole body or some crystalline containers within the items themselves. There are advantages as well - there are no limits to the complexity of the possible effects, and any number of such effects can be stored within even the smallest of items, removing the need to remember massive amounts of information. Nevertheless, a skilled and knowledged Psionic can beat a Tech-user at this game because of his ability to adapt and use the various effects at will, while it takes a lot of time for a Tech-user to prepare the numerous variants and combinations of effects.

As it is, this "magic" does not counteract any technology, because it breaches the physical principles only locally and for a brief time, and even then it only does so in compliance with the universal laws - except it uses not the laws, but the holes in them.

[Il Palazzo]

A law with exceptions is not a law. At least according to scientific method. The fact that you can precisely describe those holes makes their existence a law.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Like I said - they work according to laws. The currently known laws in comparison to those have holes.

[Il Palazzo]

All I was saying, is that a statement like: "'Magic' in MW completely relies on precise understanding of physical laws and ways around them"
doesn't make sense. If you can find ways around them, they're not laws anymore.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Once you find a way around a law, the law is changed to accomodate the way around it. However, finding new ways around the laws is an ever-continuing arms race among the psionics and tech users. Nobody is sharing the most advanced secrets, and new holes are continuously being found. Therefore the statement is correct - the disciplines and techniques are based on both the laws, and the ways around them, because even when the "official" laws are updated with common knowledge shared by the "magician" community, each individual "mage" (I seem to lack a proper word for the collective term of both Psionics and Tech-users) tries to keep an ace up his sleeve, using his knowledge of ways around the official laws to his advantage.