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[Akhier the Dragon hearted]

I read boatmurder before i even started and thought "woah if its half that hard it will be awsome!" but really even though still awsome it just not up to stat for danger. i have started on glaciers and in areas swarming with skeleton and really? that all it got! come on its fun but the only time i had a fortress die out was because i killed them.

[Rysith]

I don't remember, do undead giant eagles still have flight?

I also wondered about the first comment about modding. Won't you get undead elephants if you have an evil jungle area? (And will they not be hostile being undead?)

Sorry for not having any real advice, but I was wondering about these points.

Deathworks

Undead Giant Eagles definitely still have flight. Lanternwebs has killed two skeletal giant eagles thus far, and they were definitely flying.

You might get undead elephants in an evil jungle. However, I've also seen areas where all you would get were undead macaques, which really aren't that challenging. That's because it takes the animals that would normally be there, and makes them undead, and there isn't a good way to figure out what will be there ahead of time.

To contribute to the thread, I think that part of the change in challenge level has come because there are so many guides available. Remember, Boatmurdered was a succession game, and many of the players were playing for their first time. For other examples, look to Halltraded:  current version, but still struggling. Never underestimate the challenge of playing a fort that you aren't familiar with.

[Cheshire Cat]

i found unfamiliarity with the game made it more challenging.

but then, my first big fort was on a wilderness map with an open chasm.

open chasm ment lots and lots of batmen, giant bats, giant cave swallows and the like all over the surface. and i made a really really big map. the huge map made things harder because there were a lot more creatures on it, and it was harder to hunt them out like you can on a tiny map. once all the dangerous beasties are gone from a map, things tend to get pretty easy.

also, evil and terrifying/haunted areas are a big coin toss. as rysith said, you end up with whatever was in the biome turned into zombies. ive gotten tonnes of zombie hoary marmots and goats, which are no challenge, but if you end up with any relatively large creatures then things can be pretty hard.

there is a glacier comunity fort somewhere on the forums that the creator has to keep savescumming in, as it gets wiped out by skeletal elk every time they try to let the traders in. and as deathworks says undead fish are said to be horrible, but ive not yet found some. on coastal maps the biggest dangers ive faced are unicorns, who can be amazingly destructive when angry. danger is still in the game, you just have to mess around with worldgen and then hunt for it. i imagine once your fort gets really big and organized things may get boring again, though toady is working to fix this what with making outposts and taking armies out into the world to cause havoc.

[Eagle]

i found unfamiliarity with the game made it more challenging.

but then, my first big fort was on a wilderness map with an open chasm.

open chasm ment lots and lots of batmen, giant bats, giant cave swallows and the like all over the surface. and i made a really really big map. the huge map made things harder because there were a lot more creatures on it, and it was harder to hunt them out like you can on a tiny map. once all the dangerous beasties are gone from a map, things tend to get pretty easy.

also, evil and terrifying/haunted areas are a big coin toss. as rysith said, you end up with whatever was in the biome turned into zombies. ive gotten tonnes of zombie hoary marmots and goats, which are no challenge, but if you end up with any relatively large creatures then things can be pretty hard.

there is a glacier comunity fort somewhere on the forums that the creator has to keep savescumming in, as it gets wiped out by skeletal elk every time they try to let the traders in. and as deathworks says undead fish are said to be horrible, but ive not yet found some. on coastal maps the biggest dangers ive faced are unicorns, who can be amazingly destructive when angry. danger is still in the game, you just have to mess around with worldgen and then hunt for it. i imagine once your fort gets really big and organized things may get boring again, though toady is working to fix this what with making outposts and taking armies out into the world to cause havoc.

That glacier fort? The one where the creator keeps savescumming? The origin of Captain Ironblood? Im pretty sure that you're talking about Nist Akath. And the skelk are now no more than training fodder. Granted, the forts so awesome that uber-modded titans are considered training fodder.

I dont know why everyone says giant eagles (normal, not undead) and unicorns are dangerous; my hunter has consistently racked up over 70 kills just hunting eagles and unicorns, without suffering any injuries beyond bruising (and then he gets destroyed by a sasquatch -_-). Undead fish and giant eagles in the same biome? One bit of advice: RUN LIKE HELL.

[Deathworks]

Hi!

Eagle: Actually, I can confirm that living giant eagles are mostly harmless (and have a real knack for getting caught in the only weapon trap on the entire map early on). I just figured that undead critters would be nastier and their flight ability would render the mentioned standard defenses (moats and walls) useless.

As for unicorns, that is a historic thing. The current unicorns are said to be quite peaceful, but for quite a while, unicorns were really extremely hostile. If you sent out a dwarf to pick up something in a forest or cut a tree or fish there while a unicorn was nearby, chances were that the unicorn would go out of its way to attack the dwarf. So, it was not so much about unicorns being tough, but about the unicorns attacking your dwarves without any provocation, making the outside world extremely dangerous for any non-military dwarf. Add to this that this was the time when health care more often than not ended in the dwarf dying of dehydration or starvation, then you can easily see how they got their reputation. After all, they didn't need to kill the dwarf outright. Just giving him one injury was enough to send him to rest and then rest in peace as the health care system made sure he wouldn't recover.

Actually, this discussion made me wonder about another thing: If you have unicorns and undead critters on the same map, will they attack each other because of being evil and good? Or do they keep up the animal peace treaty?

As for having a challenging fortress, I thought of a few other aspects.

First of all, there are several exploitations people regularly make use of:

1. Moats/channels not filled with water are impenetrable.

2. Weapon traps are extremely powerful.

3. Alcohol can be cooked into lots of expensive meals.

4. Trade rates in general are really favoring your fortress.

5. Invaders bring more wealth into your fortress than you can create in the same time yourself (at least once you get ambushes/sieges)

Mind you, I am a mediocre player interested in a peaceful game, so I am actually using exploits 1,2 and 4 myself (5 does not work currently, as I have no goblins around). But if you think that the game is too easy, then one option is to refrain from using features which are unbalanced or outright bugged.

Another aspect I thought about was revelation. How many of the people complaining about the game being too easy have HFS/cave/underground river/magma presence revealed when selecting their embark site?

Personally, I think that having all that information provided takes away a lot of the excitement. It is a totally different thing whether you dig down to the deepest floor knowing there will be HFS or whether you dig down not knowing what to expect: HFS? Magma? Underground river? Nothing special?

As people have suggested, the unknown is adding to the excitement. If you don't know whether you have magma, you have to first plan without it. When you find it, you have to correct your plans. But then again, it may well be that you don't find it (unless you start on a volcano, of course :) :) ).

Finally, fortress mode is a sandbox game, so you are to choose your own goals. One form of excitement is definitely the danger of failing at your goals. Survival has (in my eyes, fortunately) become less of a challenge in normal regions, but if you select some specific goals, you can again provide things that can go awry.

Ah, and as for the creature issue, basically the most powerful creatures around are archery units and former player characters. If it is still possible to occasionally get dwarf civs who are at peace with the goblins, you might wish to first train a few nasty adventurers and align them with the goblins, and then start the game with a different dwarven civ not at peace with the goblins and hope for the adventurers to be among the siegers.

Deathworks

[Ametsala]

Actually, this discussion made me wonder about another thing: If you have unicorns and undead critters on the same map, will they attack each other because of being evil and good? Or do they keep up the animal peace treaty?

When I brought up modding animals, I meant one would remove the restricting stuff (ie. [GOOD] from the unicorn) and make their biome token [ALL_MAIN]. So you could get skeletal unicorns/elephants in an evil glacier.

[Eagle]

Yep, living creatures nowadays are mostly harmless, not counting stuff that you might find in chasms/underground. Skeletal creatures on the other hand, are uber difficult to kill, and can easily take out a starting fortress. Also, the list Deathworks put up is quite accurate, although i hate cooking alcohol.

I dont think removing the [GOOD] tag and adding [ALL_MAIN] will create undead unicorns......although its worth a try.

[jester]

Nano forts (1x1) in terrifying areas are a challenge.  The zombies basically spawn in front of your door,  terrifying jungle is the best: truckloads of s zombie chimps.

  Elephants in 2d were the best, they would randomly charge straight at your fortress, just doesnt seem to happen any more, sigh.

[sneakey pete]

Skeletal mountain goats. Those are bad enough, but then there's the skeletal giant eagle over the hill. At least it was a moutain/badlands biome so there was no need to go outside anyway.


Then there was this time i started on a terrifying or something desert, that had just a few trees. Sent my woodcutter out to cut wood, with both the dogs trained and following him. get the message "war dog has been struck down", zoom over and a nightwing has just killed it and is killing the second. got my dwarf out of there pronto, and locked down my fort straight away.

[anomaly]

1. Moats/channels not filled with water are impenetrable.

2. Weapon traps are extremely powerful.

3. Alcohol can be cooked into lots of expensive meals.

4. Trade rates in general are really favoring your fortress.

5. Invaders bring more wealth into your fortress than you can create in the same time yourself (at least once you get ambushes/sieges)

I avoid doing all of these things on a regular basis, with possible exception of #5, as I melt down all of the iron i can get from invasions.

My extent of trapping is building a corridor of stonefall traps, which is usually only enough to kill one squad of gobbos.

IMO crossbows are just too powerful... maybe someone could make a mod removing or reducing their crit multiplier, because a group of 8 marksdwarves behind some fortifications can decimate any attacking force if they have ammo in abundance.

Speaking of which, an interesting challenge would be to avoid building and using crossbows and traps at all, while simultaneously never sealing off your fort.  this means that the only defenders would be armed with melee weapons.  hmm... interesting...

Another aspect I thought about was revelation. How many of the people complaining about the game being too easy have HFS/cave/underground river/magma presence revealed when selecting their embark site?

IMO, having these things revealed does not make the game any easier... rather it is to make sure you HAVE THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE.  If I am playing a fort specifically to get HFS, I want to make sure it is there.

[galmud]

Yeah as it is once you learn the game, its too easy/boring

As suggested one thing you can do except modding or desperately searching for a dangerous location is to set a few additional rules for yourself. Heres a few suggestions

1) Dont use traps or set a limit on which traps and how many you can use. 

2) Limit the size of your military to something like 5-10% of total population.

3) Dump all loot except armor/weapons if you desperately need some metal. Dont make easy money on ridiculously valuable goblin crap

4) Dont make underground farms and/or ban plump helmets. Force your farmers to grow crops on the surface

5) In sieges never lock the entire fortress down. If you have several entrances/drawbridges to the fortress only allow one of them to be sealed/raised.

[anomaly]

mis

[Mephansteras]

Adding in more baby-snatching races does a lot to ramp up the combat difficulty. My mod has five races, and that means that I get ambushes pretty much every season. I've even had one summer with two ambushes and two sieges, all from different races.

For a real challenge, though, go for a savage evil forest or swamp. Zombie Dinosaurs...it's even worse then it sounds.

[Rysith]

2) Limit the size of your military to something like 5-10% of total population.

5) In sieges never lock the entire fortress down. If you have several entrances/drawbridges to the fortress only allow one of them to be sealed/raised.

As an alternate, have 50%+ of your population in the military, at all times, all armed (to avoid the wrestling bug), preferably with melee weapons. It ends up really straining the logistics for your non-military dwarves, while giving you a force to fend off goblins etc. if you aren't locking down the fortress.

[Pilsu]

Hopefully Toady will eventually let us mod the default skills of soldiers. <No Title> fodder is tiresome, I'd expect invaders to be at least proficient. Also, all generated equipment should range from -items- to +items+ at least

Being able to tune their squad composition would be nice too. Oh and since in the next version I think dwarves will have some stats by default, I think wildlife should benefit from that too. A bear that isn't strong? Please.