Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Org]

I would like my champion's adamantium plate mail to be inscribed with runes of fear and extra toughness, and his mace to have runes of knockback

[Granite26]

Advanced technology should look like magic, but advanced magic should look pretty magical, simply because no one would develop a technology so inconvenient, dangerous or bizarre.

Cause putting a liquid that you set on fire into your carriage so that it'll blow up and make it go forward is convenient, safe, and normal?

Familiarity breeds contempt.

The problem is, any computer simulation will end up being predictable.  Even if the outcome isn't, it'll still be subject to basic rules.  All that does is make the spreadsheet more complicated, it doesn't make it go away

[Mel_Vixen]

You can create Failsafes out of the magical and unmagical stuff in your physicsengine for you spinning vortex with random demon spawn  .

We build today hydro-mechanic dwarfputers from what? Quantumentanglement Gears and flodgates and Binarylevers. It did surpirse me that there isnt as standart clockcicle-system already on the wiki.
 Alone simple temperatur changing effects would break a wall. For almost every what so esoteric form and kind of magics you could find a usefull application, especally as soon as the Physical-flows like heat are reworked.

The problem is that you cant simulate a totally random "Magic" cause it would be damn useless except as possible Quantum-leaps on mayor chokepoints like a battle were your side is clearly losing if not "something" happens. Atleast the Ai would have problems handling it.

But let asume we get entirely random magic. I would begin to collect my "parts" and build what can from them. If you get 1000 artifacts with (all different) magical powers in a world i am sure you can get atleast 4 or 5 powerfull "combos". With intelligent usage of sideeffects even more.

Same for limited words with the extension that you can describe pretty much anything if you get the right set of words together. Assemblers, as rL example, can have very limmited sets of instruction (RISC) with which you still can describe anything.

Even if the mayor outcome is predictable but the sideeffects are inpredictable the system can almost never come to a state where Magic is usefull but at the same time unpredictable/dangerous enought.

Oh and i didnt talk about sliders Any "countable" or "compareable" effect is prone for technofication. You even yourself did it by giving your vortex-worker magical protection of "carved bones" and "kittenblood".

A magican with 50 energystorage ammulets is a Machinegun-fireball.

Not the system or its physical part are important, therefore the possibilities of the system are important and how you apply them. Why magics work is much lees impotant then that Magic works, preferable to some degree predictable.

[Eagleon]

Exploring magic to the degree that it just becomes plain old science is where Eternal Darkness went wrong, and I don't want to see Dwarf Fortress do that. Channeling too much magic in one fortress should result in HFS like events, or even just less serious but equally interesting events, like magical beings, spawning inside your energy concentrators.

I sorta think magic should be a lot like the flooding of 2D yore You collect enough magic, and aren't careful with it, crazy shit happens. You're left with all your dwarves having their left pinkies ripped off and smushed together into a giant animate ball of flesh or something. Then the pudding starts to breed.

Having to monkey with sliders every time you cast a spell would be to much hassle. I don't even know how the words themselves should be selected. As your word library grows, that's going to become a pain.

I don't think it would be too bad, if the sliders were hidden and optional. I like the idea of being able to control emphasis. Of course this would add an additional degree of complexity to making sure all the effects can mesh.

As for the word library, they could be separated and sorted into spheres, word types, power, etc., and you could have a quickcast menu with as many previously constructed spells as you like, each with manually entered descriptions. I have no doubt this will lead to interesting mistakes as people fail to take into account their changing surroundings, but losing is fun

[sproingie]

I don't think magic needs to be random so much as it just shouldn't be systematized.  It's magic, after all, its effects can't be explained.

We already have magical things happening in DF what with all the moods and possessions, Artifact Weapons of Ridiculous Carnage, and of course the Dread Ampersand Guardians Of Adamantium. 

Dwarven magic strikes me as more the "spend six winters in the forge casting the swords of all the ancestors into one and shaping it with a hammer of pure adamantium" than the "babble strange sounds and wave fingers about" variety.

[Mel_Vixen]

As i said the "how" is unimportant. The Important stuff are the the results which we can systematisize and use in advanced - scientifical ways.

[Tigershark13]

please... please do this... Imagine the fun of having an arch magic dwarf who has a tantrum because someone destroyed his wand and turns half your fort into sheep

[Silverionmox]

Advanced technology should look like magic, but advanced magic should look pretty magical, simply because no one would develop a technology so inconvenient, dangerous or bizarre.

Cause putting a liquid that you set on fire into your carriage so that it'll blow up and make it go forward is convenient, safe, and normal?

Familiarity breeds contempt.

The problem is, any computer simulation will end up being predictable.  Even if the outcome isn't, it'll still be subject to basic rules.  All that does is make the spreadsheet more complicated, it doesn't make it go away

Combustion engines are indeed normal etc. because the motor block can be pretty much isolated from everything else. Magic systems should be vulnerable to be influenced by unlogical factors at unexpected times: therefore they will be unreliable, and because they're unreliable, they won't be normal occurrences and therefore they will stay interesting, exceptional and awesome.

I think that kind of strategic unpredictability can be achieved by making magic be modified by all the things in the environment the player doesn't have control over. Eg. if two rats happen to be fighting behind the corner, that wand of conflict might not turn the two goblin against each other, but instead it could make the rats giant ones. Or make the two goblins tiny and fighting instead of the rats as well. Another example: a fly disturbs a ritual, and you get a fire elemental in the shape of a fly instead of a dwarf: revise your tactics. Or: a spell produces a quantity of acid, but in the shape of whatever happens to be in the sky at the moment: mist, clouds, flying creatures, whatever. Or: spell effects differ according to the favourite food of the target. Or: Genies don't work on tuesdays. etc, etc.

[flabort]

um... yeah. the sliders and choosing the words yourself were for adventure mode, dwarf mode would be more randomized. the suggestions were just suggestions...

[Granite26]

Advanced technology should look like magic, but advanced magic should look pretty magical, simply because no one would develop a technology so inconvenient, dangerous or bizarre.

Cause putting a liquid that you set on fire into your carriage so that it'll blow up and make it go forward is convenient, safe, and normal?

Familiarity breeds contempt.

The problem is, any computer simulation will end up being predictable.  Even if the outcome isn't, it'll still be subject to basic rules.  All that does is make the spreadsheet more complicated, it doesn't make it go away

Combustion engines are indeed normal etc. because the motor block can be pretty much isolated from everything else. Magic systems should be vulnerable to be influenced by unlogical factors at unexpected times: therefore they will be unreliable, and because they're unreliable, they won't be normal occurrences and therefore they will stay interesting, exceptional and awesome.

I think that kind of strategic unpredictability can be achieved by making magic be modified by all the things in the environment the player doesn't have control over. Eg. if two rats happen to be fighting behind the corner, that wand of conflict might not turn the two goblin against each other, but instead it could make the rats giant ones. Or make the two goblins tiny and fighting instead of the rats as well. Another example: a fly disturbs a ritual, and you get a fire elemental in the shape of a fly instead of a dwarf: revise your tactics. Or: a spell produces a quantity of acid, but in the shape of whatever happens to be in the sky at the moment: mist, clouds, flying creatures, whatever. Or: spell effects differ according to the favourite food of the target. Or: Genies don't work on tuesdays. etc, etc.

  All that does is make the spreadsheet more complicated, it doesn't make it go away

[Silverionmox]

Of course; it's possible to generate strategically complex situations with simple rules, and I'm just saying we should strive for that.

[Felblood]

I'm not saying magic needs to be unpredictable to the point you can't use it, it must simply never appear to be tamed.

--not for long anyway.

Caging large quantities of mana in unnatural ways should make for angry unstable magic, that becomes animate and tries to eat you. Magic should be a force more primal than simple quantum physics (I know!); more than just being unpredictable, it should be alive and incomprehensible.

 --and those who fail the respect the awesome powers they are attempting to control should pay a heavy price.
It should be possible, for those with the skill, hubris and vision (dwarves), to chain the very lifeblood of the Cosmos, but it shouldn't be an endeavor you enter into lightly.

Being able to make pacts with dark or abnormal (alien/extradimensional) entities for more raw energy could be another cool way to accrue power for your spellcaster. Are you willing to make yourself beholden to a Demon lord for some extra power? How many blood sacrifices is he going to want, in order to stay appeased? Think of him like a tribe of elves, only backwards; instead of trading you poorly dies rope reed cloth for not cutting down trees, he trades you tainted magical bowers, in exchange for murder and torture.

Simple, clean burning, natural magic is safe magic. --all of those adjectives being entirely relative.

[bjlong]

One problem with this idea of magic being alive and with its own agenda is its complexity to model well. Do we say that "mana " has a hive mind, with more of it being more intelligent? Does it have its own goals? How would we represent this? I'm not saying that this is a bad idea, but I would like to see some specifics nailed down. Maybe in a new topic. This is a system for "calling" magic to do something--the actual nature of magic should be discussed elsewhere, but this discussion should be influenced by it.

[alfie275]

Just had an idea, what if you could 'forget' a word if it isnt used for a while, maybe a few months? This way you would have to practice them or write them down in a spel book using a book and ink, the book would take a few hours to read. Also the more you use a word the longer you can go without forgetting it. If you forget a word and didn't write it down you would have to find it again.

[Felblood]

bjlong is right, the twin discussions going on here would probably benefit from separate threads. Since this thread was originally for the word system of activating magic, pooling, concentrating and storing magic should probably have a new one.


As to words:

The whole "wizards forget their spells, and need books to keep track of them" thing never sat well with me. If your every spell is a complex ritual that requires several minutes of work, you're going to want your notes in front of you, to keep them strait but if your spells that are literally, simple statements in a language you speak, you're not going to forget them, under normal circumstances.

Word magic isn't really suited to the traditional research wizard, who sits in a tower and experiments, filling hundreds of tomes with notes and diagrams of dubious meaning and value. You either have the exact word, or you don't and there's no way to learn it, save hearing it from someone else use it.

This affords us tremendous control over what magic is available in the world, and to who, but limits the ability for magical knowledge to grow in a vacuum.

There are tweaks that could be made to mitigate these factors, but on the basic level, that is the shape of the situation.

You could justify people gaining new words through research or meditation (not that I think this would necessarily be wise), but once they have the single word, the research that led up to that single product is largely devalued. Why keep a library of old research notes, when you only need one dictionary?

Simplicity the the elegance of word magic; say it and it is done. --but that same simplicity is it's greatest weakness; without something spooky or unpredictable under the hood, it isn't very mysterious.