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Author Topic: It seems to be cursed  (Read 4183 times)

Deathworks

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It seems to be cursed
« on: February 01, 2009, 03:23:14 pm »

Hi!

As those who have been watching my posts may know, I am trying to get a no-immigration, natural growth fortress going. After frustration with two previous attempts (the first one was seemingly in the middle of a goblin training area, and the second one suffered mostly from lack of foresight on my part), my current attempt was looking moderately good:

I was lucky with the world having no goblins, so I could leave invaders on and still have occasional visits by kobolds.

I settled in a forest which saw quite some conflict between elves and humans AND elves and goblins (yup, one of the goblin civs got whiped out by the elves, and I even got engravings in my fortress telling of the battles between the elves and the demon).

No design flaws on my part thus far. Only the connection between the feeding pool and the well's reservoire is a tad long, and with rather little rain, filling the well's reservoire will probably take a few decades (^_^;;

Trade is working smoothly, even though I don't get the elven trade agent (I forgot their correct title), so I can't order wood and elven trade is somewhat a matter of luck. Buying metal bars/ore from the caravans, forging goods (crafts and armor, most of the time) out of them and then selling those goods currently in demand is highly profitable indeed, and once I get the dwarves to send enough wagons to bring me more stone/stone blocks (especially microcline, cobaltite, and orthoclase) I can hopefully quit quarry work altogether.

Construction projects have gone smoothly, although lately the small caravans have caused problems as a lack of stone and wood forced my dwarf to mine for stone and fell trees (^_^;;

My cat population is quite stable and has decided to stay at around 60 (currently 58 as two of the original 4 kittens have just recently died of old age).

Now, you may wonder why I talk about a curse if all is well. The problems lie with my dwarves. After getting two single immigrants raising my number to 9, my population hasn't grown. As is often the case, I had a pair of dwarves become lovers in the very first year of the fortress (2009 as I genned the world to 2008 :) :) ). However, their courtship again has taken years without leading anywhere. Now, in the spring 2020 (!) the male dwarf in that relationship became the first dwarf to die in my fortress, getting killed by a grizzly bear (I had thought a civilian would run AWAY from the bear instead of running at it and attacking it (^_^;; ).

Well, as the never-ending lover lay dead on the ground, I checked with his female counterpart - after all, tantrumming would be not a good thing. Her first two lines made me smile: She was happy lately. She has lost a lover to tragedy recently.

...

Okay, they were lovers for 11 years but never got married. He gets killed. And she is happy. ... ... ...

Anyhow, dwarven children have moved even further away in this fortress as this was the only pair of lovers. Still, the fortress is currently fun as it is, so I will continue and see how this situation resolves (Pop cap is 5, so unless the last 5 dwarves all die within a few days of each other of old age, the fortress should survive).

Deathworks
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Martin

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Re: It seems to be cursed
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2009, 03:59:43 pm »

I'm doing a no-immigration fortress now. Well, I tried, at least. I embarked with one female and didn't like where that would lead, and my single immigrants were men as well, so I upped the cap to 12 to hopefully get some females to show up, and so my next immigrant wave had 22 in it. So, I went from 7 to 8 to 9 to 31. At least there were some females in the group of 22. They're up to 47 after quite a few dwarves paired off.

I decided to increase the scope of the fortress with the unexpected labor. And loads of gobbos attacking, which isn't really dangerous (one dwarf got an arrow to the knee) but makes for a lot of work for only 34 or so adults to clean up.

Rysith

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Re: It seems to be cursed
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2009, 04:13:46 pm »

Relationships seem to only develop during idle time, so you might try giving any couples that you have fewer labors to encourage them to spend time together.
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GetAssista

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Re: It seems to be cursed
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2009, 05:07:52 pm »

Yeah, make 1x1 meeting area and quit all the jobs, except critical life sustaining ones. Dwarves are supposed to hang out together to get relationship going. When they marry, it's time to get them to work.
In my current fortress I have ~50 dwarves standing in a small meeting hall at any given moment of time, and was literally swamped with marriages the other year. Circular friendship and consequent tantrum spiral possibility is the only downside.
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Foa

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Re: It seems to be cursed
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2009, 05:59:21 pm »

Yeah, the only civ in my neighbors list ( in-game, not in Select-Region ) that actually fights are the Kobolds, I'm going to aim for elves next.
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Deathworks

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Re: It seems to be cursed
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2009, 03:56:12 am »

Hello!

Thank you all for your support and advice. I had a hunch that I was giving my dwarves too much work, but there was simply always something to do (^_^;;

Anyhow, I am on the jump right now, waiting for my bus, so I have to keep this short.

As an indicator that my dwarves are overworked, I could mention that of the two immigrants I got in 2009/2010, by 2020, one has just three relations: his deity and two passing acquaintances (^_^;;

But there is a silver lining for my dwarves. Next year's human caravan might be less profitable. In 2020, the human guild representative dropped over and died of old age in my fortress - so no new agreements with them. I may run a little more crafts production, just to be on the safe side, but I think I could tone things down this year.

BTW, is it still the case that goblins do not die of old age? That would be awesome, as my mountain home liaison is a goblin (I remembered this when I saw the dead human in my stairwell).

Martin: That is a lot of bad luck. I usually have mixed populations. I think in my starting dwarves, I had 2 males and 5 females, and I think I got one male immigrant. I don't think I ever got something as one-sided as what you describe.

Deathworks
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Mook

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Re: It seems to be cursed
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2009, 04:19:50 am »

Goblins are indeed immortal, so unless he's killed by unnatural causes he'll be around forever.

If you didn't have good relations with the humans before (their merchants leaving happy) you may have to worry about brief human conflicts next year, as humans seem to affix blame on you regardless of how the liaison dies if he bites it while in your territory.  Fairly realistic, to be honest.

EDIT:  Forgot to mention.  There is no such thing as an elven liaison, as they don't care what "lesser" races want, they just bring what they feel will make the most profit.  They have diplomats, but they only live to complain about your wood supplies (and they apparently have the ability to teleport into the middle of your fortress/stealth like a mofo).
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DennyTom

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Re: It seems to be cursed
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2009, 04:55:08 am »

In 2020, the human guild representative dropped over and died of old age in my fortress - so no new agreements with them.

I feel really bad - such a sad story and I can not stop laughing.

Good luck with getting more babies.
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Groveller

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Re: It seems to be cursed
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2009, 06:47:58 am »

In 2020, the human guild representative dropped over and died of old age in my fortress

Urkh. It really is cursed. How's your military?
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Martin

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Re: It seems to be cursed
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2009, 11:21:25 am »

Hello!
Martin: That is a lot of bad luck. I usually have mixed populations. I think in my starting dwarves, I had 2 males and 5 females, and I think I got one male immigrant. I don't think I ever got something as one-sided as what you describe.

I never really paid attention before. I usually raced up my population and didn't worry about breeding, but I thought I'd try something different this time. I've never really noticed the gender breakdown in the past. Gender be a nice thing to setting to add to the embark setup, for those that like to do no-immigration games.

Deathworks

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Re: It seems to be cursed
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2009, 11:52:05 am »

Hello!

Mook: I am really glad about the immortal goblins (I never thought I would say that :) :) :) ).

As for the humans, I always give traders at least 10% over their value and also send some offerings. I think I traded a bit more than 3,000 worth this year and offered 6,000 as I hope this may cause them to send more wagons (greed, greed). I actually made the offering without knowing that the diplomat was dead.

As for the elves, they do have such liaisons, but there seem to be some conditions attached, not linked to fortress size. Since the wiki does not help either, I have posted a question in the Gameplay Question section (together with screenshots from a fortress where I had such a liaison):

http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=30543.0

DennyTom: Actually, I never really felt that close to the human representative. I figured the goblin was much more fun to have around. It may be an inconvenience, but directly afterwards, I got the dwarves, and all the things I ordered from the humans, I could get just as easily from the dwarves (except for wood besides tower cap (^_^;; ).

Thank you for the best wishes.

Groveller: Mili - what? I got weapon traps and walls guarding my fortress proper and I have started expanding weapon traps and doing some terraforming to protect against the numerous packs of wolves visiting regularly.

Actually, one immigrant was a hunter or something, so I do have a marksdwarf, but he now wields an axe, I think, like all my other woodcutters :) :)

Martin: Actually, I am a romantic sexist, so I always check the profiles of my dwarves. Besides deciding which dwarf will enjoy being a woodcutter and plant gatherer (dangerous) or which dwarf wants a safe life as a farmer and miner, I also look for two female dwarves, one who will be the expedition leader, and one who will be my record keeper.

I don't know, it just looks better that way, I think.

Deathworks
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Mook

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Re: It seems to be cursed
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2009, 04:48:21 pm »

That's interesting about elven liaisons.  Must be one of the rarest creatures of the DF world.  I guess they die really easily in worldgen, since elves are notoriously prone to sudden death when facing anything bigger than a war dog.  Hopefully someone knows how to get them, since it would be so much more handy to be able to order stuff from them instead of receiving caravans half-full of +alder short swords+
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Maltay

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Re: It seems to be cursed
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2009, 01:54:53 pm »

I started a fortress with two males and five females.  Everything was going great.  All seven founders were Legendary in at least two skills.  I had three children and three babies.  I had a dozen livestock, thirty war dogs, and multiple lines of weapon traps and cage traps.  In fact, my oldest child, a male, was just about to come of age.

Then a goblin ambush spawned inside my fortress.  The goblins, lead by an elf, somehow made it past a dozen war dogs in a three width hallway completely undetected.  They then apparently walked across three rows of weapon traps and two rows of cage traps without triggering a single response.  I assume this represents a major bug of some form, as the gauntlet they navigated represents the only way into or out of the fortress. 

Of course, the ambushers immediately jumped the closest dwarf, beating my mason to death, decapitating her two babies, and lopping off the right leg of her son, my oldest child, before my two miners picked them to death.

Naturally, the father and husband of the two dead babies, maimed son, and dead mason wife snapped and killed two war dogs and my other two children before the miners beat him to death as well.

Now a major trend, the parents of the two most recently slaughtered children also lost it, killed their only surviving baby, finished off the legless child, and got into a scrap with the two miners that left three of the four dead and my remaining miner with yellow upper spine damage.

The only remaining dwarf, my woodcutter and ranger, walked back into the fortress carrying a freshly killed groundhog, looked around, and promptly lost it.  He killed all twelve of the chained war dogs one by one followed by the dozen livestock.  Out of things to kill inside the fortress, he divested himself of his weapons, armor, and clothing and ran out into the wilderness.

His objective, a recently arrived giant eagle.  Assaulting the avian horror with his bare hands, he managed to punch out the giant eagle's throat, a mortal wound, before the giant eagle ripped off both his arms and one of his feet.

I now have a blood-spattered fortress with sixteen war dogs picking over the remains of the ambushers and their former owners.  The miner with the yellow upper spine is apparently paralyzed, as he is conscious but does not move.  Surprisingly, the woodworker and ranger, who took on the giant eagle, is still alive.  However, he is lying in the wilderness unconscious.  I suspect he will be a long time in dying.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 02:00:28 pm by Maltay »
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Martin

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Re: It seems to be cursed
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2009, 02:09:36 pm »

I now have a blood-spattered fortress with sixteen war dogs picking over the remains of the ambushers and their former owners.  The miner with the yellow upper spine is apparently paralyzed, as he is conscious but does not move.  Surprisingly, the woodworker and ranger, who took on the giant eagle, is still alive.  However, he is lying in the wilderness unconscious.  I suspect he will be a long time in dying.

And THAT is why I may well swear off immigration altogether. When everyone is related, the tantrum spirals are brutally awesome. Sure makes giving people beds and dining tables a much higher priority.

My immigrant-lite fortress just had a baby boom. In 15 years or so I expect to tip over the 80 population mark. I wish you could set the population to get sieges - I'm pretty sure I could take them on with a mature fortress and adult population of 50 - even with minimal traps, and still keep everything working, though cleanup would be brutal.

Deathworks

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Re: It seems to be cursed
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2009, 04:01:59 pm »

Hi!

Maltay: That is really a pity about your fortress. It does confirm my step to stop playing with goblins when doing breeding fortresses: As far as I can tell, ambushers are by far deadlier than siegers, and since a breeding fortress takes ages to reach the minimum number for siegers, they are longer confronted with this deadly threat.

As for the elven ambusher, as far as I know, elves have trap avoiding like kobold thieves, so this would explain why they got past your weapon traps. As for how they got past the dogs, I don't know anything about how they work in the game (except that they make nice mittens :) :) :) ).

Martin: I am kind of envious about your baby boom. 2021 is coming to a close, and I have reduced the workload significantly (fortunately, my metal crafters regularly create really valuable crafts). There have been times where all dwarves were idle and others where half of them were idle, but there is still not any development in the relations screen (except for the huntress finally having acquaintances - until 2020, she didn't know anyone in the fortress (^_^;; ).

I do have two problems with things:

First of all, idle dwarves have a tendency to go to their own private bedrooms and contemplate their furniture instead of mingling with the crowd.

Secondly, I have 2 male dwarves and 6 female dwarves (one being locked in the love relationship with the dead male dwarf). I don't know why, but there is a tendency for the male dwarves to end up taking the first jobs getting available. I am not talking about the specialized jobs, but also about hauling - 8 idle dwarves, then two hauling jobs are spawned; and yes, the ladies stayed where they were while the gents went out to do the dirty work.

I also have the suspicion that the male planter is somewhat shy. He seems to leave the meeting place where he was whenever someone else enters.

Currently, my dwarves are having a party organized by the male miner, so I hope that at least at this gathering they will form new bonds.

Deathworks
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