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Author Topic: "Traditional" stats system  (Read 15727 times)

Gangsta Spanksta

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Re: "Traditional" stats system
« Reply #75 on: November 06, 2007, 06:36:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Tormy:
<STRONG>


I dont think so. Fictional example: Lets say we have a 1-1000 stat scale.
Very Tough [sta] = 900-1000.
25 megabeasts = all between 900 and 1000, but never the same. With the current system probably almost all of them would have the same "very tough" description.

I think this whole thread is about 1 thing. Some people would prefer a more perfectionist approach regarding stats, some people not.
We dont have a perfectionist stat system. What is the problem if it would've been added someday as an option?

[ November 06, 2007: Message edited by: Tormy ]</STRONG>


As it should, since you added 25 megabeasts, which you normally wouldn't do.  Also, when you go into the realm of mega beast, what difference does it make if a 900 pound gorilla stomps you vs. a 1000 pound gorilla?  Also, you add other descriptions to define creatures.  sharp claws, dripping acid, smoke coming out of its nostrials, phase shifting in and out.  Also a weaker massive red dragon obviously is stronger than a extremely strong hobgoblin.  you can also use words like terrifying and so forth.

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Tormy

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Re: "Traditional" stats system
« Reply #76 on: November 06, 2007, 06:40:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Gangsta Spanksta:
<STRONG>

As it should, since you added 25 megabeasts, which you normally wouldn't do.  Also, when you go into the realm of mega beast, what difference does it make if a 900 pound gorilla stomps you vs. a 1000 pound gorilla?  Also, you add other descriptions to define creatures.  sharp claws, dripping acid, smoke coming out of its nostrials, phase shifting in and out.  Also a weaker massive red dragon obviously is stronger than a extremely strong hobgoblin.  you can also use words like terrifying and so forth.</STRONG>



Huh what is the difference between 900 and 1000 HP or between 100 and 150 HP? I would say a LOT in RPG and strategy games.
 ;)

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Rondol

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Re: "Traditional" stats system
« Reply #77 on: November 06, 2007, 06:56:00 pm »

I just wanted to make a comment regarding your word choices.

quote:
Originally posted by Tormy:
<STRONG>Some people would prefer a more perfectionist approach regarding stats, some people not.</STRONG>

The word "perfectionist". That kind of word choice in that situation somewhat reminds me of the Patriot Act. "If you vote against it you're not a patriot!"

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Gangsta Spanksta

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Re: "Traditional" stats system
« Reply #78 on: November 06, 2007, 07:14:00 pm »

quote:
Yes, I know what you meant. I also know that what you meant has little bearing on what constitutes good game design. Something should only be added to a game if it makes the game more fun. Simply adding things for realism's sake is never a good way to approach this.

What constitutes good game design and what does not is a matter of opinion -- not fact; you can't know it.  Fun and Realism aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.  What it all boils down to is we have different tastes.  You have not proved that any of the opinions about realism are wrong, as I have not proved your opinions of meta gaming to be false.  What is clear though is that knowing somethings like your own hit points, does give you an advantage -- however small or great -- over someone who does not.  "I have 4 hit points, he has 2, my str is 13, his is 11." Given that kinda knowledge, I can make logical and strategical decisions on what to do next, Whereas the player without that information might have hightailed it out of there.  I don't see why having that in a wizard mode is so wrong, or maybe disabling such things at higher difficulty levels.

quote:

I don't see why you are bringing D&D into this particular discussion. The statement "XXXX person is really strong", provides less information than the statement "XXXX person can lift a maximum of 4000 kg".

And how did your dwarves learn this information? There also the massive modifier you could use in the description along with others.  You tend to stick with "really strong" for argument.  I really think knowing how much a creature can lift is cheating.  Sorry.

quote:

You're trying to enforce how players play the game by telling them that their experience is somehow worth less than yours just because they have more (mostly useless) information available. Would you also claim that a person who used a hypothetical job skill summary screen to quickly find a dwarf with a certain skill instead of manually searching through every dwarf is playing a lesser version of the game?

If a creature can lift a 4000kg is useless information?  I'm used to lbs  ;) but it still sounds like a lot.  There is a difference between you and me.  You take offense at the insinuation that you maybe somehow cheating at a game.  I do not.  In fact, if I play a game like Angband, I constantly cheat by making copies of the savefile, which the game automatically deletes and the documentation says is cheating.  I have no problems with that, nor do I have problems putting in a cheat code into Contra.  If you give yourself an unfair advantage to how most people play the game as default, then how come is it so hard to accept?  If you can't see the difference between a time saving tool vs. a tactical advantage tool that is off by default, but somehow I think you can.

quote:

This falls under the category of trying to control the metagame behaviour of a player. Learning something through trial and error is inferior to learning it by reading about somebody else's trial and error because it takes far more time. Why are you the ultimate arbiter of whether a person is playing a game properly?

What about seeing hit points?  If you can't turn that into a tactical advantage, I would be stunned.  

quote:

So what? It's a single player game. There experiences have absolutely no bearing on yours, and you shouldn't let anything somebody does or says about their game affect your in any way.

Exactly, you can do anything you want in a single player game you want.  I don't consider cheating at a single player game wrong either.  What about putting the cheat code into Contra?  That's not cheating?  If so who care?  I really don't understand why you care so much that it would be a wizard mode.  :q But honestly, if it is that big of a deal to you, I won't object to it being in the init file.  In fact, I only was offering my opinion that I think it should be in wizard mode.

quote:
I was referring to math as a whole, of which numerical calculations are only a small part.
Very well, but the quote you were responding to basically said: Computer's are good at numbers, people are not.

quote:
No, that's where you realize that the abstractions in D&D have already taken into account the fact that every damaging hit from those darts either diminished the knights ability to avoid further damage, or hit a weak spot in the armour.

Is this weak spot in armor often hit by darts?  Iron armor?
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rylen

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Re: "Traditional" stats system
« Reply #79 on: November 06, 2007, 07:19:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Tormy:
<STRONG>

Yes but what if 100+ creatures will fall into the "strong" category? There wont be a single difference between them in that case regarding strength if you play with the current system. If its ok for you, I can understand it tho, thats why im saying that we should be able to choose between this and the other what I mentioned in this thread.</STRONG>


I think Capntastic answered this well.  You are cramming lots of things in at the top end of the scale.  The same problem would exist is all those beasties had Str 100 (out of 100).

I understand what you're after by "perfectionist", but I think it misses the target.  How about "precise"?  I think it captures your wanting to know exactly how dangerous a critter while still accepting there are other valid systems.

Rylen

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Tormy

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Re: "Traditional" stats system
« Reply #80 on: November 06, 2007, 07:26:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by rylen:
<STRONG>

I think Capntastic answered this well.  You are cramming lots of things in at the top end of the scale.  The same problem would exist is all those beasties had Str 100 (out of 100).

I understand what you're after by "perfectionist", but I think it misses the target.  How about "precise"?  I think it captures your wanting to know exactly how dangerous a critter while still accepting there are other valid systems.

Rylen</STRONG>



I used the word "perfectionist", because the traditional stat system offers the most detailed informations about everything, thus its perfectionist. You cannot call a system what offers mediocre informations "perfectionist".
Our current system is precise. Isnt it? Its precise because it tells you that XY creature is "very tough" if its very tough. It wont say "weak"...but its not perfectionist.

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Teldin

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Re: "Traditional" stats system
« Reply #81 on: November 06, 2007, 07:31:00 pm »

Blah blah blah. Why not just have it in the raws that a particular creature is more likely to get better at certain stats than others.

[TOUGH]
[STRONG]
[AGILE]

There. Slap a 'TOUGH' flag on your dwarves and they'll be more likely to get tough on leveling up.

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Aquillion

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Re: "Traditional" stats system
« Reply #82 on: November 06, 2007, 07:50:00 pm »

I like things the way they are, for several reasons.

One, numbers are dry and lifeless; they break mimesis, snapping the player out of suspension of disbelief.  Outside of a few standardized tests, nobody actually thinks of abilities like strength in terms of numbers.  It's a D&D bookkeeping trope that has somehow survived into a lot of other computer RPGs; in videogames, it should be avoided.  When the computer can handle all the die-rolling behind the scenes, there's no reason to make the player deal with more than one or two numbers.  Every console RPG has sheets of dry, pointless stats which players generally just ignore.  They get in the way; it's better to just know who's tough and who's smart and leave it at that.

Second, following from that, the descriptive words are more memorable, easier to take in at a glance, and easier to keep track of in your head when you have a hundred dwarves in your fortress.  With a hundred dwarves, who cares if your axedwarf's strength is 98 or 99?  What matters is whether he's a strong-type dwarf or a tough-type dwarf, and brief, color-coded stat descriptors handle that very well.

Third, dividing it up like this into clear categories makes it easy to notify the player when things have changed.  Sure, you could say "Axedwarf XYZ's strength has exceeded 9000!", but that would, to me, seem like a very out-of-place message...  Dwarf Fortress' messages are generally worded to seem 'in-character', as if you were reading an actual book, written by the dwarves, that logged the fortress' events.  Having 'reached 100 strength' written there would seem out of place.

Fourth, it would increase the game's learning curve (which it certainly does not need.)  The words are self-explanatory; numbers aren't.  Is 100 strength good or bad?  How good or bad is it?  "Extremely strong" tells you this.  "100 strength" doesn't.

Essentially, exact numbers would give the player unnecessary, basically useless extra information which they would have to learn to interpret.  It would make the game's interfaces and messages slightly more confusing.  Good design principals focus on giving the player exactly the information they need, nothing more, nothing less; this goes sharply against that.

I would even, in fact, be against making it an option, or at least an official one.  The reason for this is much simpler:  Every little option, no matter how minor, is another factor Toady has to take into account when dealing with an already-massive project.  Every optional feature or interface tweak is another thing that can break, and another thing he has to worry about updating to cope with future changes.  A change to the interface layout might affect the word and numerical displays differently, say, and Toady would have to test each.  For a 'feature' like this, it isn't worth it.

EDIT:  Now, this doesn't mean that we can't convey more useful information in some other fashion, if that's all your worried about.  For instance, if you want to be able to find the 'strongest dwarf' when you have a bunch of high-STR dwarves with the same descriptor...  why not have a noble who produces a sorted list of the 'best' dwarves in a wide variety of categories?  This would be extremely valuable for all sorts of things (say, if you want to grab your best surviving craftsdwarf after the one who was doing the job before dies.)  This noble would presumably observe or test dwarves somehow, so while he wouldn't give you exact numbers, his ratings would reflect the fine differences hidden behind general descriptors.

Of course, the descriptors could also be extended at the upper end of the scale, or made more finely-granulated, if that's the problem.

[ November 06, 2007: Message edited by: Aquillion ]

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Tormy

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Re: "Traditional" stats system
« Reply #83 on: November 06, 2007, 08:01:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Aquillion:
<STRONG> why not have a noble who produces a sorted list of the 'best' dwarves in a wide variety of categories?  </STRONG>


Yeah, because adding something like this wouldnt need time to script in.   ;)
You see, you are subjective also, just like everyone else.

PS. Your suggestion is very good btw. List about all creatures  could work, if it would be categorized. Example: Frogman -> Categories [Strength, Stamina, Dexterity] -> List all units top/down. No numbers, no text, nothing. Just the list from the best to the worst in that category in order.

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BDR

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Re: "Traditional" stats system
« Reply #84 on: November 06, 2007, 08:02:00 pm »

I read the stuff people posted before me and really liked Aquillon's post.

[ November 06, 2007: Message edited by: BDR ]

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Felix the Cat

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Re: "Traditional" stats system
« Reply #85 on: November 06, 2007, 08:17:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Tormy:
<STRONG>


I used the word "perfectionist", because the traditional stat system offers the most detailed informations about everything, thus its perfectionist. You cannot call a system what offers mediocre informations "perfectionist".
Our current system is precise. Isnt it? Its precise because it tells you that XY creature is "very tough" if its very tough. It wont say "weak"...but its not perfectionist.</STRONG>


You are looking for "precise". "Perfectionist" cannot describe an inanimate object or an idea, such as a computer game. Saying that a 'traditional stat system' is perfectionist has about much validity as saying that a rock is perfectionist.

A perfectionist is a person who seeks to eliminate all faults, real or perceived, from his or her work.

Something that is precise has a high degree of accuracy.

Sorry, but you insisted on bringing grammar into the discussion.

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Gangsta Spanksta

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Re: "Traditional" stats system
« Reply #86 on: November 06, 2007, 08:49:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Aquillion:
<STRONG>I like things the way they are, for several reasons.

EDIT:  Now, this doesn't mean that we can't convey more useful information in some other fashion, if that's all your worried about.  For instance, if you want to be able to find the 'strongest dwarf' when you have a bunch of high-STR dwarves with the same descriptor...  why not have a noble who produces a sorted list of the 'best' dwarves in a wide variety of categories?  This would be extremely valuable for all sorts of things (say, if you want to grab your best surviving craftsdwarf after the one who was doing the job before dies.)  This noble would presumably observe or test dwarves somehow, so while he wouldn't give you exact numbers, his ratings would reflect the fine differences hidden behind general descriptors.

[ November 06, 2007: Message edited by: Aquillion ]</STRONG>


 :) That gave me a great idea!  A dwarven Arm Wrestling contest!  We already have the table and the chairs.  The winner would be listed for the champion for the year

[ November 06, 2007: Message edited by: Gangsta Spanksta ]

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Chork

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Re: "Traditional" stats system
« Reply #87 on: November 06, 2007, 10:07:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Rondol:
<STRONG>I stopped reading about 4 posts ago. It was starting to sound like two camps of Nazi's bickering over how Hitler should divide England.</STRONG>

Godwin for the win!

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Chork

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Re: "Traditional" stats system
« Reply #88 on: November 06, 2007, 10:15:00 pm »

Sunday, Sunday, SUNDAY!  At... the UltraMegaHyperDome!

Be there to see Artistic match wits with Statistic in a BATTLE TO THE DEATH!  May the best philosophy survive!

SUNDAYYYYY!

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Karlito

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Re: "Traditional" stats system
« Reply #89 on: November 06, 2007, 10:27:00 pm »

So, what exactly was wrong with an init file option?  

Personally I'm against a number based system, but that's not really the point.  In fact I'm not really sure what the point is, because this is a suggestions thread and even if we all loved this suggestion, it wouldn't get added to the game.  So arguing about it seems like a cheap way to drive up post counts(although even that can't be the reason since we don't have post counts).

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