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[Tormy]

I was always wondering, that why do we have a weird "stat" system like what we have now in DF.
What I mean is:

Ogre [fictional example]
Mighty
Agile
Tough

Why dont we have a traditional stat system? Strength, Agility, Stamina etc. .. and numbers to show the current stats of the creature.

So for the ogre it should be something like on a 100 scale:
Strength: 65
Agility: 45
Stamina: 55

Wouldnt a system like this be better than the current one? I dont mind the current system, but I would prefer this more traditional one.

[ November 04, 2007: Message edited by: Tormy ]

[BDR]

>_> Is this DF or D&D?

More substantial response: I don't see why it's inherently better.  It's more gamey, but that's not necessarily better, and it breaks the suspension of disbelief, which is very bad for a game that is trying to be real in a lot of other ways (actual geology is a significant change in that direction, and not everyone was happy with that either).  I don't mind that it's not immediately clear what weapon is best from within the game world; I'm not of the temperament to live, die, and learn totally within the game, but I wouldn't want my axes to have their base damage listed directly on the weapon, my foes and I to have strength numbers so I can see exactly how much stronger I am (or he/she is), or (if Toady could help it, really; I appreciate this game is still in alpha though and can handle this) even the water levels to be in numbers (like I said, though, I understand gloss is near the bottom and am perfectly willing to be patient, especially since it's small).  Including all of these wouldn't stop me from playing, but it would be jarring, annoying and bug me quite a bit.

[ November 04, 2007: Message edited by: BDR ]

[Tormy]

quote:Originally posted by BDR:
<STRONG>>_> Is this DF or D&D?</STRONG>

 :roll:
DF...
well maybe its just me who likes to see the exact stats of the creatures.

[BDR]

Honestly, do you really think that if you met an ogre in real life you would care about anything more than the ambiguous descriptors we get in DF?

I didn't think so.

[Tormy]

quote:Originally posted by BDR:
<STRONG>Honestly, do you really think that if you met an ogre in real life you would care about anything more than the ambiguous descriptors we get in DF?

I didn't think so.</STRONG>

Huh, what is this have to do with the topic? Nothing.
 :roll:
Perhaps there should be an option in the RAWs to change to a system what Ive suggested if we would like to. Im pretty sure that more people would prefer the traditional stat system.

[BDR]

Have you read my more substantial response?  I didn't know you had already crafted a response, so it came as an edit to my first post.  The reason that my second post has to do with the topic is because it ties into what I feel is a requirement for this game, that it feel as 'real' as possible and break that suspension of disbelief as little as possible (if not never).  It'd be nearly impossible to ignore that strength number, and it'd be damn near impossible to still feel like I was actually there (to a good point) and not just controlling an avatar in a game like that.

I feel like making a snipe here: Is this feeling that more people would prefer your system inspired by the same feelings that say more people would rather have magic over tech, even though in the end they are both basically ways to do complicated things in an easier fashion?

[ November 04, 2007: Message edited by: BDR ]

[Tormy]

quote:Originally posted by BDR:
<STRONG>Have you read my more substantial response?  I didn't know you had already crafted a response, so it came as an edit to my first post.  The reason that my second post has to do with the topic is because it ties into what I feel is a requirement for this game, that it feel as 'real' as possible and break that suspension of disbelief as little as possible (if not never).  It'd be nearly impossible to ignore that strength number, and it'd be damn near impossible to still feel like I was actually there (to a good point) and not just controlling an avatar in a game like that.

I feel like making a snipe here: Is this feeling that more people would prefer your system inspired by the same feelings that say more people would rather have magic over tech, even though in the end they are both basically ways to do complicated things in an easier fashion?

[ November 04, 2007: Message edited by: BDR ]</STRONG>

Magic - tech is a completly different topic, pointless to make a link between this topic and that topic. That is about the game world, this is not.
Either way like Ive said, perhaps an option in the RAWs should do the trick. This is not a major issue, just a very tiny one, still I would like to have that system one day...also what I said is: probably there are many more people who would use the traditional stat system, and not just because were playing with D&D or other RPG games.
 

[Lord_Daeloth]

Ugh... No... As BDR said, if you saw an ogre, you'd have no idea if he was twice as strong, or only 65% stronger then you or 26 points stronger, you'd just know it was freaking strong.  I suppose I could live with an init.txt option for it, since then I wouldn't ever have to see it   :p  And heck, there are all kinds of options popping in there all the time, heh.

[Tormy]

quote:Originally posted by Lord_Daeloth:
<STRONG>Ugh... No... As BDR said, if you saw an ogre, you'd have no idea if he was twice as strong, or only 65% stronger then you or 26 points stronger, you'd just know it was freaking strong.  I suppose I could live with an init.txt option for it, since then I wouldn't ever have to see it    :p  And heck, there are all kinds of options popping in there all the time, heh.</STRONG>

Yes I understand that, however this could be true about the computer RPG games also, am I correct? Still they are using the traditional systems, and people love those.
We are lucky, becase we can control lot of stuff in the RAWs already, so maybe Toady can add this as a possible option someday. I dont want anything more really.

[BDR]

Arguing that because people love computer RPGs that blatantly show numbers, thus they will love this option is pretty flawed, because people *also* love computer RPGs that *don't* show these numbers (DoomRL and Crawl, for example, which will at most only show *your* numbers [and a limited set of them, at that] and not the numbers of your enemies anywhere in-game).  Also, just because people love computer RPGs that blatantly show numbers doesn't mean that they would suddenly stop loving them if there were no numbers, or even that there would be something genuinely missing from the games without them.  It was just the most convenient way to convey concrete and discrete information; said information doesn't *have* to be conveyed in a discrete manner for the game to be enjoyable or understandable, and if you enjoy investing yourself in the substantiality of the world, it can impede enjoyment if you suddenly see numbers pop up indicating damage amounts.  IMO, if this were my game, I would shoot this down completely, because having as little reason as possible to suspend your disbelief, to come crashing back into the reality and be able to say "It's just a game", should be one of the key goals of any game that is as ambitious as DF.  Since it's not, I could live with it being in the ini file.. just don't expect me to ever turn it on.

[Dame de la Licorne]

I personally think this game is better with the stats the way they are.  Adding in numbers doesn't really give you any new information.  For instance, if you're confronted by an 'ultramighty' opponent, you know that you need a ton of dwarves to take it down and you'll lose quite a few in the process, you don't need to know that the opponent has 95 strength, it doesn't change anything about the strategy.

[Fishersalwaysdie]

Why?
No really, why?
We have no reason except other people doing it.

[MindSnap]

Plus, saying that you took down an ultra-mighty troll king is cooler than saying you took down a troll king with a strength of 90.

[Lightman]

I prefer the system the way it is. I think it's much more fitting in this game system than an arbitrary number.

[Felix the Cat]

Dear god no.

No actual numbers, no D&D stat categories, no init.txt option, nothing.

It's pretty much been explained already. You can't quantify strength, agility, stamina, etc. in the real world beyond a series of tests. If you come across an ogre, I doubt you'll have the opportunity to time his 40 yard dash or see how many reps of 225lb bench presses he does. You'll just know that he's freaking strong.