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[Apegrape]

I don't want soil to be smoothable, as it makes little sense, but it would be good to be able to simply build walls "over" soil walls to brace them, likewise with floors. It makes sense and would look neater than simply digging out and building walls, as well as reducing micromanagement.

I like this one the best. It seems good, and when/if digging creatures get put in, the reinforced walls will provide some protection.

[LegoLord]

I don't want soil to be smoothable, as it makes little sense, but it would be good to be able to simply build walls "over" soil walls to brace them, likewise with floors. It makes sense and would look neater than simply digging out and building walls, as well as reducing micromanagement.

I like this one the best. It seems good, and when/if digging creatures get put in, the reinforced walls will provide some protection.

Yet BonSequiter fails to explain why smooth soil walls don't make sense, which makes the whole post fairly weak in the face of the arguments for smooth soil.  The idea of reinforcing walls does sound good though.

[SirHoneyBadger]

I second the motion to rename the post to something both identifiable and specific.

[Faces of Mu]

I'd agree with the idea of smoothing soil walls - on the proviso that they degenerated into unsmooth walls again a short time later.

[LegoLord]

I'd agree with the idea of smoothing soil walls - on the proviso that they degenerated into unsmooth walls again a short time later.

Not really; it can take awhile for a properly smoothed soil wall to become roughened provided nothing hits it too often.

[Granite26]

It's a define 'smooth' issue.  Even if the walls are flat, they're still sand and not as nice.  Smooth in DF is 'nicer looking and prepared for engraving'.

[LegoLord]

It's a define 'smooth' issue.  Even if the walls are flat, they're still sand and not as nice.  Smooth in DF is 'nicer looking and prepared for engraving'.

Stop nitpicking.  Anyway, you CAN engrave smoothed soil.  Any body ever done that at a beach?  I sure have.  It might not last on floors, but it should with walls.

Seriously, SAND CASTLES and DRAWING IN THE SAND should tell you that smoothing soil walls is a valid suggestion.  STOP IGNORING THE PROOF AND PROVIDE A REAL COUNTERARGUEMENT.

grrrrrrrr . . . this is as bad as the adamantine bow thread . . .

[Silverionmox]

There is a difference between river sand and beach sand; most sand sculptures are made with river sand, because the grains are not as well-rounded and therefore have more structural strength. Wet sand would also be better able to keep its form due to capillary suction, while dry sand constructions would have a much lower strength, concerning cave-ins.

[LegoLord]

^^ Of course.  But I was merely stating that it could be done with beach sand.  Which, seeing as how that's a kind of weak soil, makes the suggestion plausible.

[Granite26]

It's a define 'smooth' issue.  Even if the walls are flat, they're still sand and not as nice.  Smooth in DF is 'nicer looking and prepared for engraving'.

Stop nitpicking.  Anyway, you CAN engrave smoothed soil.  Any body ever done that at a beach?  I sure have.  It might not last on floors, but it should with walls.

Seriously, SAND CASTLES and DRAWING IN THE SAND should tell you that smoothing soil walls is a valid suggestion.  STOP IGNORING THE PROOF AND PROVIDE A REAL COUNTERARGUEMENT.

grrrrrrrr . . . this is as bad as the adamantine bow thread . . .

I'm not saying that you can't smooth sand walls or write your name in it.  What I am saying is that, in DF terms, the effect of smoothing a wall is that it is nicer and prepared to have perminant art engraved on it, and a sand wall isn't (in my opinion) Nicer, or ready to have PERMINANT engravings put on them

If you want your MW engravers to smooth the walls of your dirt hovel and carve I <3 Sue in it only to flip out the next time a dwarf stomps by and it falls apart... (personal attack redacted)  Provided nothing hits it too often?  That's a pretty big 'if' there.  Flat out: I've build sand castles, and I know how long they last.  I disagree with your belief that it's anything near perminant.

STOP IGNORING COUNTERARGUMENTS BECAUSE YOU DON'T AGREE WITH THEM.  ALSO, SHOUTING IS RUDE.

[Silverionmox]

It's not permanent, but that shouldn't stop the player from ordering it anyway... with all risks associated. And maybe in the future, someone might master the art of transmuting sand into granite, red copper or gingerbread.

[LegoLord]

That's not really a counterarguement, Granite.  You're just saying you don't want it.  You're not providing any real reason for why we wouldn't be able to do it.  Besides, if you don't want it, you don't have to do it.  And did I say it would be permanent?  No.  Never typed the word.  I said it would last, not last forever.  Big difference.

[Hectonkhyres]

It's not permanent, but that shouldn't stop the player from ordering it anyway... with all risks associated. And maybe in the future, someone might master the art of transmuting sand into granite, red copper or gingerbread.

Yeah. Just pump magma through the tunnels and you should have rough glass walls... thoug hthat might destroy any engravings. Better would be to just crank up the heat through magical means to right at the melting point of sand.

It might be even easier with loam: That you could just flashbake into one giant fortress-shaped fired brick.

[Udib Gasolbomrek]

I think that clay walls should certainly be smoothable, without question.  On the other end of the spectrum, I'm not sure that simply packing or ramming sand walls would suffice.  That said, I'm not sure that sand tunnels would be very stable without supports every few squares, and all of the soil-type substances should be quite permeable to ground-water streams and the like;  we may be more in the realm of unfinished business than that of improvement.

It would perhaps be nice to be able to stucco the walls with some sort of substance, but there we're getting into significant additions of code;  a new digging designation, a new substance, probably a new workshop — although perhaps one could make buckets of whitewash at the ashery, and then one could play Hobbit Fortress instead — and I can't really see it happening unless Toady decides that the dwarves really, really need pottery.  Which is somewhat unlike the dwarves I imagine, at any rate;  most dwarves would rather starve than eat out of a bowl made of dirt rather than good solid stone.  And, at any rate, I don't think this would happen until and unless the dwarves were using the finished goods in everyday life.  Bottling wine in clay amphoras for export to the humans, perhaps.

Which makes me think;  those mushrooms should have a quality value, hidden or no;  also, mushroom beds require a year-round substructure of fungus, really shouldn't be rotating crops with them.  Mushroom quality affecting wine quality;  wine aging and improving in barrels before bottling.  Dwarves building private wine cellars.  Elves on wine tours!!!

Ahem.  You can tell what the main cash crop in my part of the world is.

[LegoLord]

Why shouldn't we be able to make clay?  I'm pretty sure the ancient Romans did.  I don't see what's so un-dwarven about clay burned into a stone form.