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Author Topic: The Roguelike Development Megathread  (Read 245769 times)

The Moonlit Knight

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Re: The Roguelike Development Megathread
« Reply #330 on: February 13, 2009, 06:14:11 am »

The politics and intrigue start to make it not a (roguelike) game anymore.
Nope. Also, double nope.
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Granite26

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Re: The Roguelike Development Megathread
« Reply #331 on: February 13, 2009, 10:25:24 am »

Just my opinion...

Granite26

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Re: The Roguelike Development Megathread
« Reply #332 on: February 14, 2009, 12:47:34 am »

Time:

I'm running into this one.  I want to have infinitely additive stats, including speed.  Modifiers aside, the faster your speed, the faster your turn should come up.  Since the stats are infinite, I can't use the traditional 'Add your speed to your initiative counter, when it reaches X you get a turn' method.

I'll also want to have round effects, such as poison that lasts a set amount of time before wearing off.  That time should be absolute, not relative.  I don't want to base it on the afflicter or the afflictees move rate.  (At least I don't think... The possibility that poison only hits once every 10 character moves late in the game is kind of obnoxious, as is a stat boost that lasts too long).

Anyway, I anticipate the SPEED characteristic ranging from 0 to about 250-400, and again with a logarithmic scale.  worst case scenario your opponent should go 10 times before you do.  (That's pretty ridiculous even then, since combos and extra attacks could push this up into 50-60 attacks)

I'm not sure how I feel about deterministic either (roll init at the start and keep, or roll every turn).

Potentially I could find the highest speed on the map, add 100 pts and go from there. (So something with a 100 Speed as the fastest would go every other 'turn', while his 50 pt opponent would go every 4.)  That gets ugly fast, unless I scale it (take the sqrt of the stats?)

Any other thoughts?

Servant Corps

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Re: The Roguelike Development Megathread
« Reply #333 on: February 14, 2009, 01:19:02 am »

The politics and intrigue start to make it not a (roguelike) game anymore.
Nope. Also, double nope.

A roguelike just need randomness. If you can randomly generate new "enemies" to talk to, well...

Come to think of it, should Sibboth be updated for the modern age?
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The Moonlit Knight

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Re: The Roguelike Development Megathread
« Reply #334 on: February 14, 2009, 05:16:21 am »

Just my opinion...
Hah, sorry, didn't mean to be snippy or anything, I've always just kind of bristled at the idea that roguelikes are always repetitive hack-and-slash affairs and nothing else. One of my first really good experiences with RLs was actually Dwarf Fortress, so I'm not used to the definition being so narrow. And hell, if you broaden it just a little, the "political intrigue" idea could be of the same mindset as hack-and-slash; rat people out to gain higher security clearance, become more trustworthy to the Friend Computer, gain further access to sensitive systems and information (in order to hunt down the Communists tampering with all of it, of course), that sort of thing.

Quote from: Granite26
Any other thoughts?
I remember someone on r.g.r.d. had an idea for "infinite" skills/stats, though they really had a peak of 100; the trick was that as stats approached 100, the increments they increased by got progressively smaller, going from multiple whole numbers to increments of 1 to mere fractions, always approaching 100 but never reaching it. Sort of a halfway-of-halfway thing; halfway from 0 to 100 is 50; halfway again is 75 (not 100, as half is no longer 50); halfway again is 87.5, 93.75, 96.875, so on and so on. Probably not what you have in mind but it can't hurt to pitch the idea I guess.

As for roll init at start and keep vs. constant re-rolling, I think they're pretty different from a gameplay perspective, obviously. Constant re-rolling leaves the potential for sudden changes in how the fight is going; if a monster unexpectedly gets 3 turns to your 1 (or vice versa) it can tip the tables. I also think it gives more of an advantage to characters/monsters with high speed; in a roll init at start system, a bad roll could set back a quick monster for the duration of the fight no matter how speedy it supposedly is. With constant re-rolling, the monster would be able to use its speed to its full extent and advantage. If I understood your meaning correctly, that is.
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Aqizzar

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Re: The Roguelike Development Megathread
« Reply #335 on: February 14, 2009, 07:06:17 am »

Okay, so, I'm getting into this whole "teach yourself to code and make a roguelike" business.  I've batted it around in my head, and come to the conclusion that yes, I can do it.  I understand the functional logic of programming, I just need to retrain my obsolete JAVA fluency into a working grasp of C++.  That tutorial posted in the OP, while incomplete, did at least teach me how to make everything actually display on screen, which was my biggest stumbling block.  Everything else is just read-ins and math.

I've got a couple big ideas on how to make my game, and put together a function by function plan of action.  Get one basic feature (like walking, or walls) working at a time, and move down the necessary list.  If anybody has any thoughts/suggestions/comments/advice/words of discouragement, speak up, I'm new.

First, I want to make a roguelike that involves advanced movement - jumping and climbing specifically, along with terrain interaction.  The set-up behind my idea is that the Player is a mad scientist, using genetic engineering and cybernetics to make monstrous servants which you send out to do your bidding, using various abilities you build into them for the job.  Sort of a combination of Liberal Crime Squad and Alphaman.

Second, and more importantly, came to me while thinking about that word "climbing".  I want to make a 3D roguelike, and the plan I've got seems simple in concept.  It revolves around a few basic pieces - the map itself would just be a 3D array of integers.  The level would be drawn by reading those integers against a big catalog of tile-type information, and any interaction with a tile is done by calling the location's tag, or changing that tag when needed.  Essentially, the only object would be the map itself.  Line of sight and distances would calculated by basic Pythagorean math.  Actor AI would be a little complicated, but really just big piles of simple functions.  The levels will be finite, probably 50x23x9 tiles or so.

Looking through the big roguelike history sites, I don't think anyone has made a simple yet 3D gameworld outside of DF Adventure mode.  I'm probably wrong.
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Granite26

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Re: The Roguelike Development Megathread
« Reply #336 on: February 14, 2009, 09:25:48 am »

Just my opinion...
Hah, sorry, didn't mean to be snippy or anything, I've always just kind of bristled at the idea that roguelikes are always repetitive hack-and-slash affairs and nothing else. One of my first really good experiences with RLs was actually Dwarf Fortress.
I get the exact same way about music genres.  I'd certainly never say 'it's bad because it doesn't fit it's genre conventions.  Hell, I'm not even planning on making a roguelike.  Those two throwaways WERE (the entirety of) my thoughts on the genre
Quote from: Granite26
Any other thoughts?
I remember someone on r.g.r.d. had an idea for "infinite" skills/stats, though they really had a peak of 100; the trick was that as stats approached 100, the increments they increased by got progressively smaller, going from multiple whole numbers to increments of 1 to mere fractions, always approaching 100 but never reaching it. Sort of a halfway-of-halfway thing; halfway from 0 to 100 is 50; halfway again is 75 (not 100, as half is no longer 50); halfway again is 87.5, 93.75, 96.875, so on and so on. Probably not what you have in mind but it can't hurt to pitch the idea I guess.
That's what's going on any place stats get compared to each other.  The problem is the need for a constant timescale .

As for roll init at start and keep vs. constant re-rolling, I think they're pretty different from a gameplay perspective, obviously. Constant re-rolling leaves the potential for sudden changes in how the fight is going; if a monster unexpectedly gets 3 turns to your 1 (or vice versa) it can tip the tables. I also think it gives more of an advantage to characters/monsters with high speed; in a roll init at start system, a bad roll could set back a quick monster for the duration of the fight no matter how speedy it supposedly is. With constant re-rolling, the monster would be able to use its speed to its full extent and advantage. If I understood your meaning correctly, that is.
You read what I was saying correctly, although if I made it deterministic, I probably wouldn't use a roll at all.  (Always use plain init bonus only)

Willfor

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Re: The Roguelike Development Megathread
« Reply #337 on: February 15, 2009, 12:32:46 am »

Little is likely to come of this. Especially since it is my first try doing it in something other than that fancy tutorial (which kind of got me to where I am), and tries at text based things.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I am aware I am doing things wrong. It's still sort of in progress. (and I will progress to do things wrong in a more efficient fashion in the future. >_>;; )
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Fualkner

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Re: The Roguelike Development Megathread
« Reply #338 on: February 16, 2009, 12:10:50 pm »

Well, I tried to write a program that would output thousands of repetitive names, all numbered and such... Simple program is below:

Spoiler: It's in Python! (click to show/hide)

And here's my output:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

... So, can anyone help me out or rewrite my program? I unfortunately can't code in Mandarin.
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Willfor

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Re: The Roguelike Development Megathread
« Reply #339 on: February 16, 2009, 12:29:15 pm »

I'm guessing item_list.txt isn't filled with the characters your program just output? I'd help, but my python skillz are at roughly... zero.
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Mondark

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Re: The Roguelike Development Megathread
« Reply #340 on: February 16, 2009, 12:31:35 pm »

My own python skillz being rather less than 0.001, there's a much better than average chance I'm wrong here, but it looks like the problem lies with the 's = str(a)' bit.  I'd guess that the 'a' variable is a number, and the str function is converting it to some unicode string you don't want.  Try having it print out the amount variables before starting the loop, and maybe trying to set them to something corresponding to english in unicode (or whatever encoding).

At least, that's my guess.
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Sowelu

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Re: The Roguelike Development Megathread
« Reply #341 on: February 16, 2009, 01:01:14 pm »

What's your expected output for this little snippet?  Is it:

i100,
i101,
i102,
i103,

?  If that's the case, yeah, I see what's going on.  Just a misunderstanding of str(a).  You think that str(123) will produce "123", but instead it produces the single character that sits at position 123 on the character table.  Look for a function like itoa(), which is the C version of what you want.  Or maybe just a print-type of function that will print a number, as a string, INTO another variable.
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Fualkner

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Re: The Roguelike Development Megathread
« Reply #342 on: February 16, 2009, 04:21:49 pm »

Ah, that does make sense... thanks guys, I'll try it out.
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deej

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Re: The Roguelike Development Megathread
« Reply #343 on: March 26, 2009, 10:44:17 am »

I've got three things for you to add to the top posts.

My DF inspired 7DRL, Excitable Digger, whos discussion and downloads are found here:
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=32304.0

A console input/output emulator library for Java which can be found here:
http://code.google.com/p/libjcsi/

And a Java engine for creating RLs and CRPGs, which uses the above library here:
http://code.google.com/p/serf-engine/

Both of those last two were created by Slashie of http://slashie.net/news.php fame.

The libjsci library has been expanded and improved from where it started by Slashie and Myself, so if anyone runs into issues with it, I can probably help.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2009, 10:53:46 am by deej »
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Dasleah

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Re: The Roguelike Development Megathread
« Reply #344 on: March 26, 2009, 04:40:07 pm »

Man, it's been ages since this thread was active. Let's change that.

The roguelike I was working on stalled (gasp! I hear you say. Who'da thunk it) mainly because I was too busy being lazy and fooling around with Google Apps. Recently though, I've been looking at Boo and by extension, .NET. It's really quite interesting, and fortunately, a .NET binding of libtcod exists (and thanks! I know there's a person who contributed to it somewhere on this forum, so kudos to your work).

Boo is similar enough to Python for it to be really comfortable for me, which makes it very attractive. It's just taking a while to get used to some things (compiling?! What the hell!) and of course instead of being able to use Python's standard library, it's off to dig through the .NET references to use something. But apart from that, it's going well.

I think the main reason why my previous project died was that it was just coding for coding's sake - I had an idea for what kind of game it might have been, but I didn't have a plan that I could follow, a justification for coding beyond "well this thing is common to all roguelikes so I might as well code it". So I'm going to change that and before I do anything, I'm going to write out a design document for it, detailing not only what I'm coding to code, but why.

Thanks for the links deej, I'll add those straight away.
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The Roguelike Development Megathread.

As well, all the posts i've seen you make are flame posts, barely if at all constructive.
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