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[mainiac]

It gives an error message.  Sadly it gives like 30 messages and I don't know which one is relevant.

I think I killed the bastard.  I must have backed up a folder which contained bugged code but a valid exe file.  So I thought it was compiling fine, but really it was just seeing the exe file, assuming that exe was up to date and running the exe.

edit: Oh jesus!  Neo came back!  The sequel was weak though.  For some reason it didn't care that I had an undefined case, but if I edited my main file at all (even a cosmetic edit), it would notice.

[Fenrir]

My plans:
I want the player to be able to pick up anything if he has enough strength. Knocking down walls, throwing people at other people, ripping doors off their hinges to bash people, and uprooting trees to use like baseball bats should all be options.
I also want skills to be as varied. There should be three things to do with anything (These are in order of importance): hitting people, throwing it at people, and using it for it's original purpose. Doing one of the three should add skill to the manipulation of that particular item for that particular purpose.

Example:
weapons
-axe [melee] (5)
-sword [throwing] (2)

armor
-maille [use] (2)
-plate [melee] (3)
-plate [throwing] (1)

magic items
-wand [use] (2)

other
-spork [use] (7)
-spork [throwing] (4)
-elf [melee] (6)
-elf [use] (10)
-tree [throwing] (2)

I figure a vector of structs would do the job.

[mainiac]

My plans:
I want the player to be able to pick up anything if he has enough strength.

That sounds tough to do.

[deadlycairn]

... could the player pick up buildings? Or would that be beyond them. If it is, i want destruction of buildings possible at high enough strength

[Dasleah]

... could the player pick up buildings? Or would that be beyond them. If it is, i want destruction of buildings possible at high enough strength

I'd imagine it'd be easiest (and most practical) to treat it on a cell-by-cell basis, rather than a feature-by-feature basis. Each cell would have a number of associated variables - weight being the most important, I'd imagine - and then it'd be a simple process of checking strength against weight, removing that tile from the map and placing it in inventory (either directly, or by destroying that tile and adding an item with the destroyed tile's appropriate info), and then re-drawing the removed tile with surrounding terrain that isn't of its own type.

Or something like that

[Servant Corps]

Um. Anyone here other than me worried about the 'storyline' of a roguelike? 

[deadlycairn]

I dont think so

[Dasleah]

Um. Anyone here other than me worried about the 'storyline' of a roguelike? 

I am. Roguelikes seem to sacrifice story for gameplay, and I think that's a shame. When you realise that a genre that prides itself on random and procedural generation is being beat on procedural storytelling by a first-person-shooter (Left 4 Dead) you just know you've dropped the ball somewhere. I think most roguelike developers have forgotten just what we can do with the genre, and we've stagnated into games that haven't moved past the original except for adding tiles and making the letters stand for different monsters.

[deadlycairn]

I disagree. The DoomRL has little or no story (apart from a few lines of text at the beginning) and it is still a wonderful game. Giving a Roguelike a story is just adding one more layer of complexity, which is not always what you want to do.
Of course when you say plot I think of an epic storyline spanning hours of gameplay - something simpler might work, although plots and perma-death generally do not make a good combination.

[Granite26]

Actually, I'm more interest in the meta-game of a roguelike.  DoomRTS has the level system as a meta-game, and it's pretty awesome.  (although the 'melee Barons' seems crazy.

Spelunky has the less interesting 'tunnels' metagame.

(By metagame, I'm talking about something that you can accomplish that stays after you play through it)

Some games have graveyard levels, some allow you to treasure chest items for retrieval.

Is there anything I missing?  I'd really like to see something that doesn't perminantly effect future playthroughs, but can help you out on one or two.  (Maybe an unlock classes system? You start with fighter and mage and cleric and have to unlock everything else?)

[Sowelu]

-elf [use] (10)

o.O

As for metagame stuff:  I always thought a good, demented roguelike would have an 'achievements' system.  Except with actual bonuses.  Kill a hundred goblins, get +1 against goblins, kill 1000 it's +2, etc.  Difficulty:  Making such a game actually fun instead of a grindfest, and making it fun at lower metagame levels.  Not sure how.

Plots...Castle of the Winds is the only roguelike I've really played with a plot as such.  Nethack and ADOM have events that have to happen every game, in order, and that's kind of a plot.  What does plot mean to you?

[deadlycairn]

Maybe something less built into the game, like a knowledge system. First time you go into Dungeon Crawl, you know next to nothing about good combinations, good weapons, aptitudes, gods etc. Play through it enough and you begin to understand and use those parts of the game better (not really the best example, but oh well).

So all you need to do is introduce some aspect of the game not immediately known to the player for them to slowly discover - preferably something interesting/useful to keep them hooked. By the way, has anyone figured out what those doors do in Spelunky?

[Sowelu]

Well, new and awesome mechanics that aren't documented ARE important, as long as your players stick around to learn them.  It's possible to go too far and drive people to spoilers.

As for Spelunky, it has its own thread.

[Granite26]

Maybe something less built into the game, like a knowledge system. First time you go into Dungeon Crawl, you know next to nothing about good combinations, good weapons, aptitudes, gods etc. Play through it enough and you begin to understand and use those parts of the game better (not really the best example, but oh well).

The problem I've had with the knowledge system is that every game is a simulation of unknown depth.  On a console, you can just push every button on every screen.  On a PC, that's not quite so feasible.  Roguelikes are the worst about playing for 20 hours straight and then 'Oh, if I push this key on this screen, this will happen (Elbereth, I'm looking at you).  These things often have no ingame clues, so you are either reading the docs (spoiling and taking away the 'knowledge acquisition' portion) or acting randomly.  (AKA I like it when the system EITHER tells you that you can do something or learning doesn't involve non-optimal experimentation)  Acting randomly doesn't help when you have no reason to assume a command exists.  Imagine a sidescroller where you push up to enter into a door that otherwise looks like part of the background.  (fortunately you've only got ~10 buttons and can see the door)
*On a side note, I hated the old adventure games, because the USE THIS ON THAT command that worked never made more sense than the dozens of failed solutions I'd tried.*

That brings me back to the docs.  Out of game Knowledge can be spoilerized, esp if it's not hinted at in the game (no other way to learn but raw, random experimentation) or involves heavy experimentation to decode the numbers (swords get a +1 vs zombies) that often fade to statistical insignificance.  (OK look, it might help if I had a chest full of weapons of approximately the same strength and I new I was going into the graveyard, but in no other case does it help.)
\rant

Difficulty:  Making such a game actually fun instead of a grindfest, and making it fun at lower metagame levels.  Not sure how.

Perhaps exactly Nethack, only upon reaching a level 10 character, all starting characters start with +1 level.

All you lose is the first character level, which averages out quickly, (using D&D, start with 1000 xp, but level 5 it's meaningless) but allows you to start the game at a slight advantage.

[Tilla]

Maybe something less built into the game, like a knowledge system. First time you go into Dungeon Crawl, you know next to nothing about good combinations, good weapons, aptitudes, gods etc. Play through it enough and you begin to understand and use those parts of the game better (not really the best example, but oh well).

The problem I've had with the knowledge system is that every game is a simulation of unknown depth.  On a console, you can just push every button on every screen.  On a PC, that's not quite so feasible.  Roguelikes are the worst about playing for 20 hours straight and then 'Oh, if I push this key on this screen, this will happen (Elbereth, I'm looking at you).  These things often have no ingame clues, so you are either reading the docs (spoiling and taking away the 'knowledge acquisition' portion) or acting randomly.  (AKA I like it when the system EITHER tells you that you can do something or learning doesn't involve non-optimal experimentation)  Acting randomly doesn't help when you have no reason to assume a command exists.  Imagine a sidescroller where you push up to enter into a door that otherwise looks like part of the background.  (fortunately you've only got ~10 buttons and can see the door)
*On a side note, I hated the old adventure games, because the USE THIS ON THAT command that worked never made more sense than the dozens of failed solutions I'd tried.*

That brings me back to the docs.  Out of game Knowledge can be spoilerized, esp if it's not hinted at in the game (no other way to learn but raw, random experimentation) or involves heavy experimentation to decode the numbers (swords get a +1 vs zombies) that often fade to statistical insignificance.  (OK look, it might help if I had a chest full of weapons of approximately the same strength and I new I was going into the graveyard, but in no other case does it help.)
\rant

Difficulty:  Making such a game actually fun instead of a grindfest, and making it fun at lower metagame levels.  Not sure how.

Perhaps exactly Nethack, only upon reaching a level 10 character, all starting characters start with +1 level.

All you lose is the first character level, which averages out quickly, (using D&D, start with 1000 xp, but level 5 it's meaningless) but allows you to start the game at a slight advantage.

POWDER is good at this. When you start you cannot choose anything but your gender and name and go forth into the game. Once the score list is full for the first time however, it unlocks the ability to choose your god, and therefore your starting class at the beginning.