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[kytuzian]

I think C++/Java/C# is ultimately your goal. They are generally the best to make games with, and the languages professional games are usually made with.

However, to start, Python, or a program like Game Maker is probably the best place.

[Anvilfolk]

Why DO you want to end up in C++? I'm a bit more OK with Java and C#, but even then. I realise some of these higher level languages are slower (much slower sometimes), but how much performance do you need out of the language these days, especially for roguelike development?

I think most people eventually give up because they can't code up their dream game fast enough. I'm betting a pretty huge part of that is the language they are choosing! I'd rather see many somewhat slow completed roguelikes than lots of incomplete C++ pre-alpha pre-tech-demos

IL-2 Sturmovik: 1946 was using Java for most game stuff in 2001 and it worked. It's been 12 years. Surely things have evolved even more since then

[alexandertnt]

I agree. Unless you need the level of control C++ gives you, it is really not very useful and will probably slow you down. There are just better languages out there for programming roguelikes. (I do know alot of the choice is personal preference, considering where many earlier roguelike programmers started out from).

I think C++ needs to crawl into a corner, die, and be replaced with something with the same level of control/speed as C++ except not shackled to C. Or for C++ to dump the notion of trying to remain somewhat compatable with C.

C++ was the second language I learnt (learnt some python before, but C++ was "the" language to learn, apparently). And not just C-in-a-C++-compiler, Right up to classes, inheritance, dynamic polymorphism etc etc. I have moved onto other languages and I have no intention of going back to its obscurated error messages, lack-of-garbage-collection, fiddly static/dynamic library linking etc unless I absolutely have to.

Also I do not think Game Maker Language is the best language to learn. It is too simplistic and featureless. Python is always nice to learn because it does not overwhelm you with concepts (simple programs are simple to understand) but also has alot of advanced concepts that will be useful to learn, plus is generally more useful all around.

Regardless of my above rant against C++, its speed and features grant it some use in the right scenario (performance-critical things like pathfinding, graphics etc). Here is some interesting information on language speeds.

[Skyrunner]

I use C++ for two reasons. One, it's fast for computing heavy tasks, and two, it has a lot of library support.

Take C#, a language I'm very tempted to change to. It uses Visual Studio, too, which I love for its friendliness (but don't ask about its compuler's standards compliancy >.> <.<). But someone I know from IRC reported that most game libraries for C# either don't have a binding, or it's broken. :/
Python, said to be one of the most easy languages to work in, but it has the caveat that it's slow. Also, for some reason I can't really relate to its syntax >.> I guess I need to find an interpreter that actually works, first.

Also, why do people like garbage collection so much? O_o

Re: chart— Seems like C beats everything hands-down for pure speed, with other compiled languages following closely. And one of the compiled version of Python seems to work pretty fast, too.

[alexandertnt]

Also, why do people like garbage collection so much? O_o

Less time programming memory management equals more time programming game . Also its just nice not having to worry about it, and reduces the possibility of bugs for newer programmers.

But there are alot of C++ libraries out there, plus it is fast. This is one of the reasons that it needs to (IMO) abandon being (mostly) compatable with C and/or die so that libraries can start appearing for more productive languages, or become more productive itself.

Here is some interesting discussion on the "productivity" of programming languages

Ultimately though, someone who has coded in C++ all their life will continue to code in C++ and probably do a pretty good job of it. A good C++ programmer is a good programmer (actually probably a great programmer given the complexity of C++ versus other common languages).

Also with regards to the chart, V8 Javascript seems bloody fast for a scripting language .

[Normandy]

+1 for the comment on C++ needing to curl up in a corner and die. But there's just so much code written in C/C++. In particular, your operating system and graphics driver are written in C/C++ (with a fair bit of assembly thrown in there). I've heard of D http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D_programming_language as a possible "successor" to C++, and in truth I think it's rather cool, but there's simply not enough support for it at this time IMO, and I don't know if it'll ever reach critical mass.

EDIT:
Actually, I think C++ has some nifty features. The stream operator (<<), compile-time templates (that don't suck, like Java generics...), C++11 initializer lists (squeeeee), language-level support for the = operator and copy constructors, great compiler and debugger support. C++11 also modernizes the language a lot (although, for backwards compatibility, it also introduces a lot of its own complications).

[Skyrunner]

C++ isn't as bad as lots of people claim it to be xD

[SilverDragon]

I like watching you all debate and thinking "I really have no clue what's being said". Its kinda an awesome feeling.

[Scoops Novel]

Defintely a marketable skill .

[Andir]

Regardless of my above rant against C++, its speed and features grant it some use in the right scenario (performance-critical things like pathfinding, graphics etc). Here is some interesting information on language speeds.

That link shows how much JavaScript has improved... it's right up there in Java/C land for a majority of the tests.

[Absolute Niro]

I sort of want to learn C++ some time, but I feel all books and online tutorials assume you're already a programmer in some language. The only language I'm comfortable with is BYOND (which is simpler than even Game Maker.)

So does anyone know of any good resources for developing stuff in C++? Something that doesn't think I know what a thread or an array is, because I don't. PacmanRL will become reality.

[dennislp3]

Well one of the cornerstones of a good programmer (even a novice one!) is the ability to research and solve problems...thats really what its all about.

Its not beneficial to do copy/paste type tutorials for the most part. I would seriously consider finding a good tutorial that covers terms and functions and stuff and then find a way to apply them in an open manner.

Here is a good list for beginners:
http://www.cplusplus.com/forum/articles/12974/

Obviously most of this is not exactly "entertaining" or fun to code or figure out but before you can make what you want you have to learn what you need. Once you get a handle on the basics you can go as far as you can think, research, and experiment really. Also don't forget that it takes time...and usually lots of it to start. Start simple and before you know it you will be able to lay down the basic framework of PacmanRL with ease...just try not to start it without the basic knowledge of C++ or you will get frustrated and scrap said project for no reason.

[Absolute Niro]

Of course, it's just that with no knowledge of the language it's rather difficult to figure out what I need to learn to be able to actually do something. The list you posted obviously means that's not an issue, though, so thanks.

[Anvilfolk]

I use C++ for two reasons. One, it's fast for computing heavy tasks, and two, it has a lot of library support.

This, a lot. SDL and its Python binding, Pygame, are extremely low level. Most libraries for other languages are incomplete and buggy, abandoned or not actively developed. I'm thinking of SFML, for instance, which is a wonderful, beautiful library. It's just elegant as heck... but it's for C++, and bindings for other languages suffer from the above problems.

But someone I know from IRC reported that most game libraries for C# either don't have a binding, or it's broken. :/

Isn't XNA "the big thing" for C#? They're both Microsoft technologies, so both should work just fine, no?

Python, said to be one of the most easy languages to work in, but it has the caveat that it's slow.

How fast do you really need a roguelike to be? Besides, like someone else posted, you can always compile Python and get it to run quite a bit faster.

Also, for some reason I can't really relate to its syntax >.> I guess I need to find an interpreter that actually works, first.

This is the kind of innocent looking but extremely destructive and misleading comment that really should be avoided. Please, please, PLEASE avoid them... If anything, it's C++ that has that problem with its OS-dependent standards and compilers. Good luck cross-compiling anything at all in C++! It requires pre-processors, emulated linux environments, multiple individually downloaded, configured and linked library versions... In Python you copy the source file and double-click it.... there is ONE official interpreter, available for all major platforms, and I've yet to hear about or experience any cross-platform issues.

Also, why do people like garbage collection so much? O_o

I really do think the main question is why you like manual memory handling so much? I mean, why bother with it? It's rarely a problem... why introduce longer development times, segfaults and incomprehensible bugs when you can easily avoid them for what are, for all intents and purposes, marginal performance penalties?

C++ isn't as bad as lots of people claim it to be xD

It's not if you already know how to program in it. Besides, neither is Python... especially when people claim things like being unable to find an interpreter that "actually works" 


Again, I used to love C++. It's all hardcore... it gives you programmer cred. It really does. I think better of the skills of those who are proficient at C++ than those proficient at Python. But people who want to learn programming because they want to make a game will not benefit ANYTHING from starting with C++. They'll make buggier programs and become unnecessarily frustrated, likely dropping the project much sooner since they get nowhere because of that "segfault" because of that "pointer" somewhere tha....

I'm not even sure it's that marketable these days, compared to other technologies. I've mostly seen jobs for Java and C# lately.

But I need to stop getting into these arguments. I get so frustrated by them...

[Andir]

Isn't XNA "the big thing" for C#? They're both Microsoft technologies, so both should work just fine, no?

A blog post from developer Promit Roy earlier this week apparently detailed Microsoft's plans to fully retire the XNA Game Studio tools on April 1, 2014...

"XNA Game Studio remains a supported toolset for developing games for Xbox 360, Windows and Windows Phone," said the representative. "Many developers have found financial success creating Xbox LIVE Indie Games using XNA. However, there are no plans for future versions of the XNA product."