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[Warlord255]

Hail, Yog Sagoff!

Sulu-tu, Yog Sagoff!

Yog Sagoff Thread, ARISE!

On the subject of mental disorientation as a status ailment - what about natural causes of such delirium? Head trauma, blood loss wooziness, shock from pain, hunger/thirst dementia... temporary insanity as a system would have to come before it could be induced by poisons/drugs.

[L0rd_ZOD]

Urist McHammer says "Don't do drugs kids"

[Tigershark13]

considering one of the first things discovered in most ancient societies was a form of substance abuse... this actually makes sense

[SirHoneyBadger]

I just want to add the thought in, that with the advent of souls into DF, drugs (recreational and otherwise) might have a positive or negative effect on souls.

I read a report that compared the emotional/psychological state of well-being felt by habitual peyote users, compared to habitual alchohol users, and the report concluded that the peyote users tended to be much more well-adjusted and emotionally content, compared to the regular alchohol consumers.

I'm not saying it's so, and I'm not promoting drug use, kids--I'm just saying that's what I read, and it gave me some ideas (other than about getting high.).

So maybe in DF there can be a sort of drug "scale" that, in addition to whatever immediate effect a given drug may induce, could either harm or benefit the user's soul, in the long term. Possibly even healing emotional damage, at one end of the scale, or eventually destroying the user's soul, and rendering them into the "Living Dead" (a state of being as opposed to-but not far from-undead), or possibly even some form of demon, at the other end.

Ofcourse, a given drug could have more than one positive/negative effect, and ideally, any given drug would have a mixture of both.

Physical fatigue, short term insanity/severe hallucinations, etc. might still result from a drug that "healed" the user's soul, and a soul-destroying drug (in the long term) might still be used positively, as perhaps an analgesic (painkiller), while surgery was being performed.

[Vattic]

Sir I cant help but agree, I have already mentioned that ritual use of certain chemicals is important to certain groups and it has been mentioned that most cultures have some history of this, I would imagine most ritual substance users would claim it had something to do with the soul so it fits well. Not sure if it really counts as recreational use though.

[SirHoneyBadger]

Well...I don't want to speak for the OP, or for the original intention of this thread, but there's a tendancy for threads to metamorphose, over time, and the influence of forum-goers over threads tends to flow and swing osmotically, from more to less to more seriousness.

In this case, drugs are something that atleast my culture (I'm an American) tends to view...almost the same way we view sex--as something that is a lot of things, but never *quite* mainstream, or accepted, however popular they happen to be (and atleast in the case of sex, if not also drugs, however healthy and positive the potential is.).

So, while yes there's a lot about drugs that could be put into the game, both beneficially and seriously, there's also a certain demand to wring out as many of the comedic/naughty aspects, first, before we can settle down into business.

In that way, atleast, I suppose (ironically?) that the thread is quite aptly named...misnomered. 

[Salmeuk]

Well...I don't want to speak for the OP, or for the original intention of this thread, but there's a tendancy for threads to metamorphose, over time, and the influence of forum-goers over threads tends to flow and swing osmotically, from more to less to more seriousness.

In this case, drugs are something that atleast my culture (I'm an American) tends to view...almost the same way we view sex--as something that is a lot of things, but never *quite* mainstream, or accepted, however popular they happen to be (and atleast in the case of sex, if not also drugs, however healthy and positive the potential is.).

So, while yes there's a lot about drugs that could be put into the game, both beneficially and seriously, there's also a certain demand to wring out as many of the comedic/naughty aspects, first, before we can settle down into business.

In that way, atleast, I suppose (ironically?) that the thread is quite aptly named...misnomered. 

I must agree.

Damn you warlord, I thought I wouldn't have to keep tabs on this anymore.

Anyways, added some tidbits of ideas to the top.

KEEP GOING THIS CAN SUPERIZE

[Spoonfeed]

Did people in medieval times EVEN HAVE recreational drugs, I thought they were always too busy getting ruled over by fancy guys in castles and contracting the plague.

Alot of theorists and historians have attributed the existance of heaven due to drug use, same with hell.

Datura makes for a nice hellish nightmare experience, it's a shame half the times you don't recover and go stark raving mad...

[praguepride]

I think introducing a smoking tobacco like substance (pipe weed from the Tolkein novels) might be an interesting addition. Then nobles can demand more and dwarves might go for a smoke break as opposed to the "generic On Break" task.

They'd get happy thoughts from smoking good pipe weed, bad thoughts from not having it in awhile (unless their personality states they don't like smoking)

However, going farther then that I feel crosses many lines. Once you start getting into depressants, hallucinagins, stimulants, drug addictions... I feel like the game would lose a lot of it's innocent charm. It's not completely innocent as is (especially fell moods and beserk tantrums) but having a fortress of beserkers is one thing, having a fortress full of opium addicts seems disturbing, and not in a "fun" way, or even a Fun way.

[SirHoneyBadger]

I see your point, but at the same time, we already have cannibalism, dwarfs butchering other dwarfs in order to make furniture and clothing out of them, trivial suicide, and punishment by skull-fracture---and those are just the acceptable social activities.

Not to mention, we've also got infanticide, dismemberment, and the evil zombie versions of cute furry forest creatures.

I think at this point-with the complex physiology the game embraces-it would just by grossly hypocritical *not* to consider drug addiction as a possibility "feature", as long as the players have the choice of whether they want to incorporate it into their Fortress.

[Urist McDetective]

Given that you would be introducing drugs to your fortress, but not (hopefully) dictating depedancy levels & specific usage, I wouldn't consider it a problem.
Something that can really be ignored 'if you don't want it in your fort'.
"A fortress full of opium addicts" would be your own creation.

 I was interested in the thought that drugs could have effects on souls, with positive and negative results. Actually, my first thought was to split it to (x,y) - positive/negative & passive/active.
The possibilities as to how you could calm down your berserking dwarves, keep your sentries from going to bed or incapacitate the next ambush would only limited by the substances available by herbalists & trade.
On the other hand (once poisons & souls are in) ... this could be better up for modding, no?

[SirHoneyBadger]

That kind of depends on what poisons will be able to do when they get here. A lot of drugs *are* poisons, though. Just the dosage differs--and sometimes not by much.

I'm hoping, once we get poisons that can target different tissue types, and specific organs, that some will be able to directly target the brain, but not necessarily in a permanently damaging way.

[Spoonfeed]

I see your point, but at the same time, we already have cannibalism, dwarfs butchering other dwarfs in order to make furniture and clothing out of them, trivial suicide, and punishment by skull-fracture---and those are just the acceptable social activities.

Not to mention, we've also got infanticide, dismemberment, and the evil zombie versions of cute furry forest creatures.

I think at this point-with the complex physiology the game embraces-it would just by grossly hypocritical *not* to consider drug addiction as a possibility "feature", as long as the players have the choice of whether they want to incorporate it into their Fortress.

Does this mean i can queue Dwarves for Butchering? I really want that, it would add so much depth.


I see that Toady is planning to add smoking circles and smokable consumables for the dorfs, should be ace

[Jackrabbit]

Dwarves are only butchered by fell dwarves. It's like the bad version of fey.

[praguepride]

There's a big difference between accidental coincidences and planned implementation.

The dwarven mother making a handbag out of her child: That was pure random coincidence (and don't ever let any anti-violent-video game nuts find out about that one )

Being able to dictate the drugginess of your dwarves, that's active planning.

One workaround is to make it a noble-only luxury. Working dwarves are too busy to smoke and shoot up, but nobles are bored and want the latest fix.