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[Pilsu]

Magic is still magic, even if you're not specifically casting Cure Light Wounds. Undermines the entire basis of the realistic wound system to include nonsense cop outs for healing

[Neonivek]

Magic is still magic, even if you're not specifically casting Cure Light Wounds. Undermines the entire basis of the realistic wound system to include nonsense cop outs for healing

Who said anything about Cop outs?

It is no more a cop out then a doctor using pain killers or honey. Both mixtures ARE magic because both produce a magical effect Pilsu.

All that is being done is increasing the number of mixtures in the game and allowing those with an expertise in mixing them to make them.

No more different then any medicine really.

Plus this game also reflects mythology and epic storytelling and as we ALL know... Medicine made of 100% rare ingrediants is usually very effective! (in fact it usually cures diseases or curses... Mind you that they usually are things like Manticore poison... but still). So it isn't getting into magic just yet Pilsu to have effective medicines that have seemingly magical effects.

We don't need magical medicine to simulate the effects of magic medicine.

[Pilsu]

That makes no sense

[Neonivek]

That makes no sense

Makes total sense.

Honey can save a person's life or even allow them to keep a limb when even a highly skilled doctor couldn't. Isn't that magic? It sounds like magic to me.

[SirHoneyBadger]

I see Pilsu's point about medicine possibly being too complex an issue to "wave any wands" at it, but when I've had the chance to study Chinese medicine (and Indian, and Egyptian) in more depth, I plan on addressing this, since those fields of study involve themselves with holistic well-being, as well as the soul, as a part of the overall physical structure.

Since this is a fantasy environment, and since souls are going in, it's definitely something that we can't turn our backs on. Since it's DF, it's also nothing that can safely be only lightly touched upon.

It's really quite ironic that, in order to address the issues presented in a simulated environment, created for entertainment purposes, we're actually going to have to aim for something even *more* complex than actual, real life, Western medicine.

By the way, is anyone here very interested in actually persuing the study of ancient medicine, and the ramifications of medicine in a fantasy world? I'd like to form a sort of "academic circle", so that this can be gone into, in a lot of depth, and (hopefully) from a lot of different, educated perspectives.

If you have the time to commit (atleast a couple of hours a week), if you don't mind taking direction from me, and if you have a strong interest, please PM me, and I'll set you some goals.

I can promise that, if you're committed to learning, you'll learn something, and that might just add to your enjoyment of the game.

[Pilsu]

There's nothing mystical about medicine. If you think honey is magical, I'm gonna have to question your sanity. Adding medicinal herbs that don't exist in the real world? Sure, we already have elves and shit. At long as it's actual medicine, not a handwaved cure lesser wounds potion

If you want to add superstition, rituals and general stupidity into the mix to reflect historical ignorance, that's a matter of religion. Nothing wrong with that as long as we're clear that it's just a civ's custom, not an integral part of the process itself. If you insist that setting bones in a special mystical way works better, you're one step away from hit points and Heal spells

[SirHoneyBadger]

Well, I plan to offer this up to Toady as a mixture of Western and Eastern medicine (among others), so yeah, there will be some "mystical", and holistic elements, but they'll have specific functions which relate to the introduction of the soul, into DF.

Nothing that doesn't have a solid basis in real world practices, right now, today (or that isn't, atleast, well-documented in the past, as history). Whether that's because of a belief system, or not, the fact does remain that emotional and psychological states *can* have an strong effect on a patient's physiology. That's been proven, to my satisfaction anyway.

So you can call it magic, or miracle, or just plain voodoo science, but DF is still set in a fantasy world, and I'm not going to ignore that entirely--even the more extreme elements.

Besides, anyone who's read my posts knows I'm adamant about magic not being simple, or simplified, or in any way a cop-out. Since it's obviously a point of strong contention, where the subject of medicine is concerned, that'll be doubly the case here.

[Neonivek]

The point I was getting at Pilsu is that you often seem to be a bit too stuck on the name "Magic" and not enough on what is actually going on.

"Cure Light Wounds"? Yeah nice Dungeons and dragons reference... too bad it is used all too effectively as a "be quiet" (unintentionally I am sure)

Honey by all means contains the EXACT effects you claim to be against because it is "Magic". Yet honey is not magic.

Potions by all means are not covered by the Magic system unless they use the magical effects covered by the system mechanically.

Though mind you that I guess we can go higher on the list to include Unicorn's Poison purifying and Golden Apples. Though those tend to be rare or dangerous. Though I'd hardly call them a cop-out due to how rare or dangerous they are.

Though that is hardly the point... I just want you to stop harping on the ideas that could be done even without the "Magic" Lable. Just consider them Setting specific kinds of honey.

[Mel_Vixen]

The problemm at a unicorns ability is that you have to kill a unicorn if it doesnt grant you his/her help and killing a unicorn is iirc a way to get 100% cursed.

(Al)chemical potions would need a way to determine if a certain mixture develops new/unexpected effects like being poisonous althought all ingredients are healing herbs.

Spoken from a uneducated peasent point of view some stuff is "magical" althought it is a pure physical or chemical effect.

[SirHoneyBadger]

I realize that this is a controversial subject, but Pilsu's opinions and arguments are still every bit as valid as everyone else's, and he's taking the time to be an active, valuable participant in this discussion, so please give him the same respect and politeness that we give to everyone else.

We don't all need to agree, and that's ok. I don't want anyone to have the opportunity to feel that they're being singled out as a target, or turned upon, and I'm starting to detect that sentiment.

[Pilsu]

Honey by all means contains the EXACT effects you claim to be against because it is "Magic". Yet honey is not magic.

I'm against magic because by definition anything magical doesn't have to make any kind of earthly sense. Arguing that cause and effect in chemistry and physics (the effects you body is based on) mirrors cause and effect in magic (waggle my fingers so shit happens for no reason) and drawing the conclusion that everything that happens is thus automatically magic will just make me bash you in the face with a rock and yell SHAZAM 

Potions by all means are not covered by the Magic system unless they use the magical effects covered by the system mechanically.

The very word 'potion' implies magic. Look it up, I'll wait

Though mind you that I guess we can go higher on the list to include Unicorn's Poison purifying and Golden Apples. Though those tend to be rare or dangerous. Though I'd hardly call them a cop-out due to how rare or dangerous they are.

Unicorns are bleeding everywhere, they're fauna like everything else in this game. Not exactly a mystical beast that only shows himself to virgins. _{Anyone else notice the unfortunate implications in such myths?}

They're a cop out because you don't need to biologically justify their effects, just say they're ooh aah magical and rare and thus it's okay if they make you shit rainbows and grow a third cock. That's not medicine, that's magic. Rare magic is still magic and has nothing to do with medicine. If you want to talk magic, go talk in the thread about the magic arc. Medicine, the treatment of the physical body, has nothing to do with magic

Though that is hardly the point... I just want you to stop harping on the ideas that could be done even without the "Magic" Lable. Just consider them Setting specific kinds of honey.

Stop harping that just because the setting isn't a carbon copy of the real world every bloody mundane thing has to be handwaved with magic. See, I can do that too

If you're not gonna do anything interesting with it, you might as well not bring magic into it at all. It's like saying I Can't Believe It's Not Butter! tastes like butter because MAGIC! What's the point? Why is it relevant anyway? That's magic, not medicine. It has nothing to do with this thread. Go harp about your unicorn horns' special powers in the magic arc thread, we're talking surgery, anticeptics and painkillers here. Science


If you want to talk about treating the soul with magic, that's another matter entirely because the soul IS magic and thus it makes a modicum sense that you wouldn't use a sharp rock to try to fix it. So yeah, talk about that since it bears some relevance. I'd be interested in what your views on that are

[Swiftfreddy]

I have read the OP but only a little of the replies after so I am sorry if my response is a little vague or just a repetition.

Basically, I think Surgery/Medicine should be implemented but not on a large and complicated scale. I think there should be like a few basic areas of Surgery/Medicine (like you mentioned in the OP) that have their respective "cures". And then maybe some different remedies for certain poisons etc.

But most importantly I think that almost any injury will heal over a long time without treatment (or with very basic treatment that doesn't require much skill or tools) and then the healer/doctor etc is implemented to cut these healing times a lot shorter or to heal certain poisons that may cause death if untreated.

[Neonivek]

Potion doesn't imply magic... Looked it up.

there is a reason why "Magic Potion" isn't redundant.

The difference between Science and Magic Pilsu is that Science is explained. Do you really need everything to be explained?

Stop harping that just because the setting isn't a carbon copy of the real world every bloody mundane thing has to be handwaved with magic. See, I can do that too

Stop harping that just because the setting has similarities with the real world that everything has to be mundane... or even beyond mundane. See, I can do that too.

Unicorns are bleeding everywhere

No they arn't because not only do they only appear in "Good alligned" places but the "Good Alligned" locations are going to be gone by next release.

They're a cop out because you don't need to biologically justify their effects

You mean like Nanobots, Stem Cells, Anti-sceptics, or any other kind of medicine. The real difference is that Magic doesn't have lists already drawn up for you while science already has everything down. Otherwise there is little difference between Magic and Science and your starting to harp against "Magic" that can be just as easily done with Science of the same level especially for a fantasy setting.

If you want to talk about treating the soul with magic, that's another matter entirely because the soul IS magic and thus it makes a modicum sense that you wouldn't use a sharp rock to try to fix it. So yeah, talk about that since it bears some relevance. I'd be interested in what your views on that are

Well I don't lump everything within magic. For the most part I put Souls into a category of Praetornatural. Though I recognise that in this setting the mind is held within the soul so that any mind control would have to be within the realm of Soul Control. So I guess Id have to allow Magic to influence Souls. Mind you that perhaps Toady can allow the Brain to have an effect on the Soul too, but it makes more sense that the brain serve as a bridge especially for multiple soul possessions. Though Psychology is just as good as any magic! Why use a magic spell when you can simply torchure them into insanity?

Altering the Soul can be done with a Simple sharp rock Pilsu. You just have to know how to apply it!

[Mel_Vixen]

A potion (from latin potionis, meaning beverage, potion, poison) is a consumable medicine or poison, usually possessing magical properties.

This means not every "potion" has to be magical

Also healing a "soul" has not to mean that Magic is included althought the viewer it might look like that. Every not magical Psycholy can be ritualisied.

Anyway Pilsu is in so far right that it would be better if we keep to mundane maedicin as long there is no word of the toad on magics and it workings - especally because between 4 persons exist atleast 5 views how magic schould work.

[Neonivek]

Or better yet Heph... The civilisation should determine if they consider it to be magical or natural.

Does Honey work be chasing off demons contained in injuries? or is it a simple medicine?

Does Unicorn Horn work like magic dispelling the poison due to latent magic? Or does it contain a chemical that bonds to most poisons making them harmless?
-Though mind you... Unicorns do dwell in Spherical lands... so any setting set not to include them probably wouldn't have any.

It being left entirely subjective yet never truely explained could be a great way to not only keep in all the flavor but also keep away most of the complaints.

The difference between them believing in its magical or beneficial effects is who they have to administer it.

One of my favorite settings is Exalted since it easily combines Science, Magic, and Philosophy as if it was the same. (which it is... You really can't have Science without Magic in the setting) Though Id hardly want something like that for Dwarf Fortress. Afterall if you seen their explanation of how pottery making worked you would go insane.

So far I am really into this conversation