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Author Topic: Surgery/Medicine in DF  (Read 26603 times)

Slitherrr

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Re: Surgery/Medicine in DF
« Reply #180 on: March 16, 2009, 04:34:08 pm »

I would imagine that they drank booze.  Considering that's habitual, anyway, I can see how it would appear that the dwarves aren't taking any form of anesthesia.
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G-Flex

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Re: Surgery/Medicine in DF
« Reply #181 on: March 16, 2009, 05:08:30 pm »

For surgery and medicine, I'd still love to see animal-neutering of some kind (although this is obviously a secondary thing) at some point, and maggot therapy ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maggot_therapy[/url[), which is surprisingly appropriate for dwarves and the time period.
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cparax

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Re: Surgery/Medicine in DF
« Reply #182 on: April 02, 2009, 09:52:19 am »

I'm bumping this because (1) it's awesome and totally needed and (2) there's one glaring omission (or maybe not - a search didn't turn it up, but I've been lead wrong by that before).

Historically accurate reconstructions of surgery in the 18th and 19th century usually include a sink right by the operating table to show the surgeon walking into the theatre without any kind of scrubbing - often introducing dirt, grit, grease, and even (if he had just come from a minor surgery) other patients' bodily fluids - and then, after he was finished, washing his hands.

The period between the invention of ether and chloroform and the discrediting of spontaneous generation (and, hilariously, the miasma theory of disease) is in the history of medicine often referred to as the Dark Age of Surgery. Because surgical prep no longer involved either knocking someone out with something lightweight like liquor or cautious concussion or strangulation or giving them something to bite down on, surgery stopped being desperate and careful and became something almost commonplace. Where before surgery might have waited until horrible pain or immediate threat to life or limb (gangrene, enormous benign tumors / inevitably fatal cancers, etc), a new confidence came into the field, and limb operations became routine and painless. Worse was the change in boldness of surgeons - outside of the extremities (which could in any emergency be amputated, cauterized, and prosthetized - something known as far back as ancient Egypt), classical surgery had to do mainly with ducts, protruberances, and exposed holes - so dentistry and the cutting of kidney stones (in many medical cultures distinct from both surgery and medicine per-se, a distinction preserved by abjuration of cutting out stones in the Hippocratic Oath and the extreme specialization of European dentistry), along with less savory practices having to do with the genitals (on which more later - not as nasty as it sounds, I promise). In short, surgeons considered fiddling with anything they could not hack off with a saw and sear shut irresponsible.

During the Dark Age, that belief basically disappeared; while extreme caution was taken to avoid physically damaging the organs of the torso, sufficient understanding had been developed from centuries of previously almost useless study of cadavers' body cavities to allow for effective surgical intervention in various torso-based problems, including hernias and cancers. This is where we get to why it was a Dark Age: without the understanding necessary to avoid infection, surgeries were routinely performed in which iatrogenic morbidity approached 100%. By the time the first glimmering of understanding of sterilization had arose (a quarter century later!) a general prejudice against internal operations had developed; when Lister brought the work he, Semmelweis, and Oliver Wendell Holmes Sr. had done in non-miasmic contamination to general understanding, it still took some time to understand that the body cavities were prone to infection well beyond the capacities of contemporary sterilization to handle.

This problem was common to all surgery in the body cavities, including the removal of bladder stones  (worth looking up, but painful even to think about) Samuel Pepys carried the egg-sized stone he and a surgeon had cut (conscious!) out of his bladder - through his perineum - with him often as a memento and a stark testiment to how awful a problem stone removal could resolve, but evidence suggests that his entire urinary tract was infested with gangrene and it might have contributed to his death. As the diary showed he remained a capable and vigorous sort, but on the other hand he wasn't a friggin' stone miner. On the other hand, in feasibility terms duct-work would be the single most likely form of surgery for dwarves to practice. In societies without the strong taboos against molesting any dead (rather the more common taboos against disfiguring corpses you know personally), anatomical knowledge would be sufficient to allow for surgical intervention within the realm of the ducts - so some ear/nose/throat surgery, the removal of certain parasites, the cutting of bladder stones, the treatment of stomach and respiratory ailments, and the more medical/surgical form of midwifery that existed before the Industrial-era separation of obstetrics and 'traditional' birth.

Especially if dwarves have access to reasonably sophisticated anaesthetics, they would probably suffer the same problem, requiring the introduction of infection somehow. A prosthesis status would also be helpful; it would slightly reduce speed, weapon accuracy and power, and performance in certain skills, but it'd be far preferable to the losses inflicted by the absence of a limb. Prosthetics, crutches, litters, primitive wheelchairs, and other such devices would take sophistication to build well - in some cases, requiring as many as four or five skills to build - but would confer various advantages:
 - Wounds would heal at the same rate of a bed-ridden dwarf, but the dwarf could gather food and alcohol for itself in one of several ways, and even under certain circumstances working and fighting.
 - A dwarf with permanent and crippling injuries could use them to remain mobile and useful. This includes military, especially for pike/spear and crossbow wielders, but mobility problems would be present and in any case they'd pose a disadvantage in wrestling.
- The entire prosthesis family would fall into certain categories: replacement limbs (splints and immobilizers for damaged limbs and pegs and hooks for mangled/amputated ones), hauling-enablers (litters), self-haulers (crutches), and ambihaulers (wheelchairs). The first category simply replace limbs; the latter categories obviate the need for their use, allowing dwarves to either (a) be hauled by a dwarf with healthcare enabled, if possible while wielding or hauling items themselves; or (b) to 'haul themselves', removing the ability to move in combat or during the use of item-centered skills but allowing for basic mobility.
For self-hauling, there would be a huge incentive to keep the ground soft and the z-levels ramp-spanned. Dwarves hauling themselves on crutches or wheelchairs would receive minor unhappy thoughts from 'walking' over rough or muddy ground and either would not be able to traverse stairs or would have fairly heavy negative thoughts from them.
Hauled dwarves would function basically as normal, but would be able to function from haul - so legendary miners with a broken leg could still mine somewhat slower instead of being trapped in bed, and so on. There would be a fairly heavy negative thought from being dropped off short of the destination the way normal hauled items are.
- If possible, dwarves with two or more limbs intact would still be able to swim, slightly slower, and maybe wrestle almost as normal in water.
- And old, sick, or disabled nobles would obviously expect not just a litter, but their own litter and a fairly nice one at that.
- The litter, wheelchair, and any other device making the dwarf other-haulable would count as a bed for sleeping purposes. (Indeed, some early litters were basically a bed on sticks.)

In general, the aim here is to avoid the fairly ahistorical position the injury simulator's limits occasionally impose in which someone with certain perfectly viable injuries is basically the (non-)walking dead. A king of Denmark ruled and fought from inside a shield due to a congenital condition which essentially turned his bones to pudding, for God's sake - the dwarves can do better than that.

There should be a Healthcare profession, including a noble (the physician), skills (dentistry, surgery, ductwork), and a few specialized buildings: an anatomist's allowing the development of surgical skills with corpses at the expense of unhappy thoughts by nearby dwarves and particularly traditional or empathetic friends or relatives; an apothecary's office for the noble, whose presence reduces the effects of miasma and who dwarves will occasionally receive happy thoughts from visiting and which sells extracts during the economy; the (duct) clinic, which acts as a non-noble version of the physician for older dwarves and recent mothers, and the hospital and surgery, which store prostheses and medical salves, immediately heal some minor injuries, have a chance of un-mangling/breaking certain organs and a better chance of un-mangling/breaking limbs, and which fit and assign prostheses and haulers, VERY loud, constant miasma (and dwarf chunks!), and non-functional if in direct light.

The ductworker profession would also handle desexing animals, which would have [DESEX-M] and [DESEX-F] tags, possibly with numbers and body parts dictating the possibility injured organs (neutering a dog wouldn't be too much of a worry, but neutering a crow involved poking around close to the intestines and liver). A special name might be added for some desexed animals, and the main effect would be preventing them from either emitting or receiving procreative spores. If possible, other sex symbols would be used to distinguish them easily - small-* for males and big-* for females. (Similar use of symbols might be fitting for species like antmen which (should) breed without males, but adding non-tetrapoda sexes might be more trouble than it's worth.)

From our perspective (largely focused on large mammals), it would seem to make sense that desexing would be male-limited, but especially for cloacal animals or insects, it would be well within the range of possibility in the tech setting to reduce the breeding population for whatever reason by reducing the number of breeding females. If your fortress is routinely breeding giant cave spiders and you actually have a way of convincing them to part with their gonads peaceably, neither sex would be appreciably more difficult to do so with. Most mammals would be male-exclusive, though.

On the other hand, duct clinics with a focus on obstetetrics/midwifery should do various things to simulate the overall improvement of family health from that: increase the chance of multiple birth and the likeliness of pregnancy (sorted by animals - one might want horses to give birth more often but not cats or dwarves, or vice-versa), reduce the baby and child age cut-offs, and otherwise generally allow them to turn Dwarven reproduction from an oddity into a strong complement and possibly even alternative to heavy immigration.

The other possible addition, although I don't know how well it would balance out, would be the possibility of adding the very strong psychosomatic effects of medically ineffective remedies common before the systematization of anatomy, infection, and injury. While for life-threatening or debilitating injury the knowledge to effectively cure or treat the condition has a long history, just because bloodletting, humor-balancing, and various panacea did not medically do what they sought to - and were even sometimes a danger to health - doesn't mean they were useless as social devices. In a society which believes in bloodletting, even though that kind of 'treatment' for disease would cause anemia and minor limb injury, the psychological effect of access to and use of the "treatment" is difficult to overstate. This would provide a big opportunity in the psychology-dominated social system of DF - in addition to utilitarian and rehabilitatory measures, medical facilities and professions might exist which inflicted minor, recoverable, and non-rest-requiring injury on unhappy or insane dwarves in exchange for happy thoughts or alleviation of their distress. We're used to modern medicine and might not want a thing to do with bloodletting as a "cure" for anything, but we'd think fairly different if we were raised to believe diseases and misery were often caused by an excess of blood.

Besides all that, the one most important thing is this: infection is a HUGE part of medicine and surgery. If dwarves have anaesthetics worth the name, they're definitely going to have to deal with it, and its omission is heavily at contrast with the medical realities of the period. Remember, up until WW1 most casualties of war died of disease - that even includes the ugly, awful bloodbaths like specific Napoleonic theatres and the Thirty Years' War. In the prescientific era, someone who suffered an even mild puncture of the gut while defending a swamp in the summer had a lot more to worry about than vomiting.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 05:53:43 am by cparax »
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Surgery/Medicine in DF
« Reply #183 on: April 02, 2009, 05:29:48 pm »

That was an awesome post, cparax! 5 gold stars!

Hopefully, Toady will take a look at it soon. I think you've got some really good ideas here. 
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Slitherrr

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Re: Surgery/Medicine in DF
« Reply #184 on: April 02, 2009, 10:18:06 pm »

I second that.  Well done.
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cparax

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Re: Surgery/Medicine in DF
« Reply #185 on: April 03, 2009, 06:16:57 am »

Brief overview of anesthesia: anesthesia isn't quite as simple as blind drunkenness, especially in a society which is strongly dependent on booze. We tend to think of them as alike, but there's an important difference: modern anesthesia involves utter unresponsiveness.

What kind of anesthetics the dwarves/local civilization have access to imposes specific limits on what they can accomplish. You can only do so much by either making someone largely insensate to skin or shallow-muscle trauma (as in heavy alcohol intoxication), and controlled concussion and air deprivation are both risky and short-term, only allowing a 5-10 minute operation window at the very best.

A) The simplest form of anesthesia involves dissociation, as accomplished prominently by herbal/drug-related treatments and alcohol. Under ideal conditions, the patient is conscious to most of what is happening to them, but doesn't strongly associate with that consciousness and/or has a difficult time forming a permanent memory of it. By and large, this (and the numbing of skin and dulling-down of sudden movements) is why pre-anesthetic surgery in the West is mainly associated with heavy doses of liquor.
B) Sedation; this basically means 'sleep', and it might as well be the same thing. The patient can respond to commands and some reflexes are still present, but consciousness is only partially present. Sedation would be the preferred state for difficult birth (which to some extent includes birth by all humanoids, who are distinguished by the very recent development of upright posture, leading to relatively extreme risks and injury from both birth and evacuation present in almost no other animals). It would also be the minimum for schedulable amputation; if the patient were in extreme pain, amputation would likely be possible without any anesthesia at all, but in cases of uncurable injury or severe gangrene, surgery would require the introduction of extreme levels of pain and no less than the reduction of consciousness would be required.
C) Analgesia; this involves the deadening of all but extreme pain along with the removal of consciousness, greatly reducing the means of arousal. Analgesia would be the preferred state for fixing bones or removing limbs in the absence of horrific pre-operative pain.
D) Anesthesia: the near-complete suppression of reflex and consciousness. Pain is irrelevant because the parts of the brain which process it are inert; a real risk exists of breathing failure. This would be the generally preferred level of anesthesia for painful surgery not requiring active patient involvement, and would be prerequisite for non-ductile head and torso operations.

Local (limited to specific nerve compleces) and topical (limited to the area of skin and muscle to which it is applied) anesthetics operate in parallel and are largely limited to analgesia - the reduction or deadening of pain and reflex. If available, it would be preferred for any local surgery in which it is possible, including most routine dentistry and the treatment of waste ducts and stones, and yet the unconsciousness of the patient is undesirable.

Generally, the remainder of 'anesthesia' is limited to the deadening of pain generally or locally, efforts at inducing sedation or dissociation, and efforts at reducing the memory or trauma of surgical events. And more generally, the older and bigger wounds are, the less desirable and/or possible surgery on them without advanced anesthesia of some kind would be.
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Maggarg - Eater of chicke

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Re: Surgery/Medicine in DF
« Reply #186 on: April 03, 2009, 01:22:12 pm »

I wonder exactly how old a dwarf could get under all this new stuff.
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alfie275

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Re: Surgery/Medicine in DF
« Reply #187 on: April 03, 2009, 05:52:55 pm »

I'm not going to have ramps in my fort: I'm going to have a lift! If winches aren't implemented some time soon I might think about a bridge-lift ( using bridge to fire them one Z-level up) or a pressure shaft.
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Surgery/Medicine in DF
« Reply #188 on: April 03, 2009, 06:37:01 pm »

I wonder exactly how old a dwarf could get under all this new stuff.

I'm modding dwarfs to have a maximum age of 1250 years.
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Lesconrads

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Re: Surgery/Medicine in DF
« Reply #189 on: April 05, 2009, 08:04:03 am »

I've fought my way through all this +thread+ to present you my -opinion- how medicine should work in DF.

very first: thanks for your ☼awesome posts☼ cparax .

second: almost 50% of all written text in here was due to 2 parties arguing about how effective medicine in DF should be.  One party likes the grim wounds and many dieing dwarfs while the other party supports (more or less) cure lesser wounds or lesser resurrection. The discussion of "magic" was just there to support the possibility or stupidity of either views.

That being said: I like, how hard times can be in DF.
My beloved armorsmith was JUST outside the fortress but still inside my walls, when an arrow hit him to fall over dead... one single arrow... it was horrible.
But "that's life"! Just as it is life, that one of my champions got his swordhand hacked off while sparring. Now he will lie there in his bed for ages, never to wake up again

 - no wait!

There it is, the difference between resurrection and helping the dwarfs to get well again.

What, in my opinion, should be in the game is kind of a nursery system. Dedicated medical beds and rooms. Dedicated medical personal to hand them water and change bandages. No more "letting the open wounds heal in plain, underground air". No more peasants giving the ill water.
It should really improve the chance of wounds to get better (instead of, sometimes, worse without medical care).
Primitive acts as fixing the bones straight with some stone rods and cloths or cauterise bleeding wounds are the only things i could think of as "surgery". No bladder stondes, no opening the head for internal bleedings or ANYTHING near fixing the heart... just primitive stuff.
Prostheses are important aswell, i think. But please - no arcanomechanic or clockwork or steampunk golem-stuff on my dwarfs. Pirates anyone? Yes! Peg-legs and hooks for hands. Help our disabled poor bastards to get along with their lifes. They should - even though slowly - be able to walk to get some food, drink and maybe pick some herbs or plants from the field.
But i don't like the idea of Dwarfs getting as good as new with their iron-hand or wooden peg-leg. It just does not fit into my view how the atmosphere of this game is... but exactly this opinion differs very much.
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G-Flex

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Re: Surgery/Medicine in DF
« Reply #190 on: May 11, 2009, 08:18:02 pm »

Opening the head up was actually probably the EARLIEST surgery known to man. Trepanning was, anyway. Stone age dudes knew how to drill a hole in somebody's skull to relieve pressure without necessarily killing them.

And if you don't think medieval people knew how to do any surgery, you ought to look some stuff up; you'd be surprised. How else do you think they could castrate their animals (or, hell, people)? Apparently, by the 15th century, there were universities devoted to surgery already. I just found a site mentioning caesarean births and bladder stone removal being medieval-era, but obviously caesarian sections tended to result in death of the mother up until something like the 16th century.

Also this:
Quote
Some other quite routine or ambitious procedures included the operation for the removal of a cataract, the routine removal of external hemorrhoids, the removal of a bladder stone, the surgical correction of a hernia, the dangerous fracture of the skull through trephining (making small holes in the skull with a saw) to reduce pressure and drain pus and blood, as well as others.

As far as a lot of your proposed changes go, I suggest you take a look at the recent dev notes. A lot of that is getting implemented now.


Granted, if you were to extend this beyond medieval Europe to, say, the ancient Greeks/Romans or the medieval Muslim world, or China, you'd probably have a lot more to work with as well.
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Surgery/Medicine in DF
« Reply #191 on: May 11, 2009, 09:59:18 pm »

G-Flex: If you'd like to review the reference materials I've listed, I *think* we've got most of the stuff you're talking about covered, already. Maybe not a lot on trepanning, (I haven't gotten around to doing it, or assigning it, yet) but I know there's information on stone removal, and I think about the eye stuff, too...
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G-Flex

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Re: Surgery/Medicine in DF
« Reply #192 on: May 12, 2009, 07:37:57 am »

Yeah, that post was more a response to Lesconrads' underestimation of the extent of surgery in centuries past.
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uttaku

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Re: Surgery/Medicine in DF
« Reply #193 on: May 12, 2009, 02:20:45 pm »

while i wholly argee with you that medicane should be added and with several of your ideas, you are forgetting 1 majorally important point, you, and other, keep refering to using booze as a pain killer, what you seem to have forgotten is that these are dwarfs! and even baby can drink an entire keg of rum with no ill effects, do you really think that any amount of booze will be able to affect the mightly dwarf consitution??
I think not!
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Remalle

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Re: Surgery/Medicine in DF
« Reply #194 on: May 12, 2009, 02:38:55 pm »

Man if throat surgery and neutering were implimented I'd have nightmares (though it would be funny to have a surgery go horribly wrong and have blood spatters all over the operating room).  -1
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