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Author Topic: Surgery/Medicine in DF  (Read 26253 times)

SirHoneyBadger

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« Reply #165 on: March 15, 2009, 05:56:20 pm »

General bundle of ancient medical info, concerning obstetrics, antiseptics/antibiotics, and the use of soaps and cleansers:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: March 15, 2009, 05:59:40 pm by SirHoneyBadger »
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G-Flex

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Re: Surgery/Medicine in DF
« Reply #166 on: March 16, 2009, 01:13:19 am »

Honestly, you should have left the Baghdad Battery out of there.

It's a single device which MAY THEORETICALLY be able to generate a current.

It probably wasn't used for that purpose and, according to some stuff on the article you linked to yourself, couldn't even produce very much current on its own at all. It's like saying that people could have electroplated metal because they found a potato with a wire stuck in it.

the bitumen completely covers the copper cylinder, electrically insulating it, so no current can be drawn without modifying the design;

With information like this available, I don't understand why people keep throwing "BAGHDAD BATTERY!" around as if it excuses widespread electricity, even minimal-current forms like electroplating.


Also, as far as liquid soap goes, potassium lye (the kind made from wood ash, as in DF) actually tends to make softer, more liquid soap naturally. It's HARDER to make bar soap with it.

And since the phrase "probably possible in 1400 AD" came up, I'll say what I've said before: Just because something was physically possible doesn't mean they would have done it. They could have made simple binary computers in 1400 BC if they had the cultural knowledge. Not that I'm saying you're committing that error, just to be wary of it.
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Surgery/Medicine in DF
« Reply #167 on: March 16, 2009, 03:32:50 am »

While I'm fond of the 'Baghdad Battery' idea, it's definitely not one I'm going to commit to. If a bunch of them had been found, then maybe. As it is, it's a bizarre-and fairly useless-anomaly, with almost nothing concrete to really support it.

I do like the speculation that it may have been related to the "Philosopher's Stone" that alchemists were always searching for.

Still, it's atleast something real(ish) to possibly base electroplating on, in DF. Not that that's necessary-- just that it's a possibility.

After all, lots of things-even certain kinds of fruit- will produce an electrical charge, and did long before 1400AD, so atleast it's something people would have had everyday contact with, even if they remained completely oblivious to it.

I've been thinking for a while now that it would be cool to have a set of unique "one-off" artifacts in the game, that our dwarfs (possibly the philosopher noble) could occasionally build. Nothing you could set out to get, or mass-produce, but individual items that would show up here and there, allowing you access to things that would normally not show up in the game.

Things like the Baghdad Battery, the Antikythera Mechanism, the Chinese earthquake detector, maybe a giant orrery, etc. They'd show up rarely, and randomly, as an alternative to "normal" artifacts (and whatever outright magical things we eventually get), just to add a bit of spice to the game.

And don't worry: I'm very aware of the 1400AD limit.
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Felblood

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Re: Surgery/Medicine in DF
« Reply #168 on: March 16, 2009, 05:06:28 am »

Titanium doesn't occur in natural nuggets, the way aluminum does. It wasn't even discovered until the 1700s. As such, it's a considerably larger stretch to include it, than to include aluminum.

I'm not saying it should be completely ruled out as something to see in the game. It's just that saying, "we have aluminum, so titanium makes sense." is just ... wrong. The reasons that Aluminum was included don't apply to Titanium, so it needs to be justified on it's own merits.

What about Platinum?

I don't know about it's capability for osseointegration, which probably isn't very good, but it has similar corrosion resistance to titanium, and our dwarves already have access to it.

There are ways to plate metal other than with electricity, though most of them aren't nearly as good for making surgical implants. That's probably a better direction to come at that issue from, since electricity is so controversial.

Making vinegar, or even distilling some sort of fermented juice into concentrated acetic acid, seems like something that dwarves would be bound to discover. Is there any plant they haven't fermented and distilled?

The antiseptic properties of alcohol and ascetic acid are a small, but significant jump from there. Just because our dwarves have something, and we know some things you can do with it, doesn't mean our dwarves have to know. That said, using drinking alchohol as a disinfectant is just about the dwarfiest thing ever.
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Mel_Vixen

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Re: Surgery/Medicine in DF
« Reply #169 on: March 16, 2009, 05:19:49 am »

Well there is a roman-myth. It goes like this iirc: "One day the roman Emperor held audience for all Gold and silversmiths in his Empire. Many people came and showed theyr work and so a middle old man did come forth and showed a crown. This crown Light as a feather and shining like silver. The emperor wondered what this metal was and asked the smith about it. The Smith foolish as he was answered "My emperor i have discovered this metal and i am the only one who knows how to make it". The emperor heard that and sentenced the Smith to death because the emperor did know that this new Metal would make the silver and maybe even the gold Price to fall in a bottomless pit. "

Since Aluminium can be refined by a chemical reaction too some people believe that the Metal of the Crown was Aluminium. Well this story is very unlikely i have to admit.

The Bagdad Batery woulöd be good for galvanisation maybe.
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Surgery/Medicine in DF
« Reply #170 on: March 16, 2009, 05:22:55 am »

Actually, titanium *does* occur natively, although like aluminum, it's very rare.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_metal

http://www.galleries.com/minerals/ELEMENTS/TITANIUM/titanium.htm

Heph: I've heard that exact same story, except instead of a light, silvery metal, it was an unbreakable "glass" the man had discovered.

The speculation in what I'd read was that the man had discovered plastic.
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praguepride

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Re: Surgery/Medicine in DF
« Reply #171 on: March 16, 2009, 05:34:15 am »

Would a dwarf really care about a little rust in the system? I'm reminded of Predator 2 (and the AVP CCG) where Predator medication is "surprisingly light on pain killers").

Pain killers are for pussy elves and weak humans! Also I think it would be interesting if dwarven medication is a deadly poison to the rest of the world

"Oh, you've got a splinter? Just sprinkle some rust flakes and rub this mushroom on it for awhile"
*patient screams in agony
"Oh yeah, you might experience some slight pain..."
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Surgery/Medicine in DF
« Reply #172 on: March 16, 2009, 05:49:23 am »

That's a good question that's probably going to require Toady to answer for us.

Rust might be harmless to dwarfs, or it might be significant, due to dwarfs' close association with the earth. Rust/corrosion is kind of a corruption of that.

I think it'd be interesting if rust was more damaging to dwarfs, acting like a mild poison, possibly--which might be another point of explanation as to why dwarfs seek to make their metals, and armours, so excellently.

Also, while dwarfs should be tough, I also like to think they'd be smart enough to employ pain-killers for practical purposes.

It's not a question of them absolutely needing them, more a question of being better off having them, and not being unnecessarily masochistic.

Predators seem to be a little more caught up in their own machismo than is really beneficial to the species--to the point where it almost seems like a decadency of the culture, in and of itself, or atleast ritualized. Obviously, they have access to high degrees of medical technology. 
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Urist McDetective

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Re: Surgery/Medicine in DF
« Reply #173 on: March 16, 2009, 06:14:55 am »

Quote
Predators seem to be a little more caught up in their own machismo than is really beneficial to the species
Are you saying that Dwarves are not? Perhaps machismo is not an accurate catch for dwarves, but they aren't exactly known for acting in their best interests ... currently.
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Surgery/Medicine in DF
« Reply #174 on: March 16, 2009, 06:45:36 am »

That's true, but they'll also run screamingly away from a bug they don't like--not to mention they build those Fortresses, in the first place, which doesn't exactly say "unconcerned for their personal safety".
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praguepride

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Re: Surgery/Medicine in DF
« Reply #175 on: March 16, 2009, 09:46:16 am »

Considering that a dwarf who's missing arms and legs will keep trying to work, I don't see them as being so pansy as needed painkillers.

They might embrace the pain as a reminder of their acheivements or follies. They might embrace the pain as part of their lives.

"Do you need something for the pain"
Uris McDwaf grits his teeth and hits Urist McDoctor with a steely gaze. "No...I'm fine."

This wouldn't be any S&M nonesense, just a culture that embraces stoicism and forgoes usless luxuries. Unless they're nobles, but then the're doped up on opiates that they don't need painkillers :D
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Pilsu

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Re: Surgery/Medicine in DF
« Reply #176 on: March 16, 2009, 09:50:23 am »

Dwarves get bad thoughts from being attacked and any number of unpleasantries. Your overblown machismo results in little else but a laughable caricature of a race, something which has plagued dwarves for quite some time, preventing anything interesting from being conceptualized
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praguepride

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Re: Surgery/Medicine in DF
« Reply #177 on: March 16, 2009, 10:23:26 am »

Hey, just because they don't complain about it doesn't mean they automatically like it. Being stoic doesn't mean being immune to bad thoughts, they just tend not to show them. Instead they bottle 'em up until they explode in a beserker rage of dwarven fury. They then punch their children in the heads and storm out for the hammerer.

I think it says a lot that the common punishment of "hammering" usually explodes dwarven civilian skulls.
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Pilsu

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Re: Surgery/Medicine in DF
« Reply #178 on: March 16, 2009, 10:37:15 am »

Well, dwarves already have personalities so you can make them inclined to be stoic if you so choose
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praguepride

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Re: Surgery/Medicine in DF
« Reply #179 on: March 16, 2009, 12:36:17 pm »

Bah, painkillers. They didn't have painkillers back then! They either took it like men or passed out like any tough macho man did.
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Man, dwarves are such a**holes!

Even automatic genocide would be a better approach
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