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[lastofthelight]

This thread isn't a question about modding or even specific mods, but rather to see what (a specific type of mod) enhances, what it takes away, how it can work well, and how it can't - in general, I mean. This isn't to flame (or even complement) anyone, just to see what works and what doesn't.

What I mean specifically is that there are basically 3 types of races in DF. Races which will trade with you, races which will trade with you until you piss them off by cutting down trees, and races which will siege you until you die.

I've heard that in the new version this can vary, that you can have dwarves at peace with goblins but at war with elves, but aside from issues where (elves have outbred goblins, or somesuch) - I havn't /really/ seen that happen.

Anyways, I was playing around with a race I made for myself (a Siren race) - intended to basically babysnatch and enslave other races, but being unable to breed themselves, end up with mostly siren leaders and (other races) as the bulk of their population. It didn't work; and they ended up basically sieging like goblins - except with sirens, obviously. So I thought to myself 'well then, whats the purpose of this mod'?

More specifically, without diplomacy in the game, what is the purpose (aside from the fun of the /concept/ of extra races) - of race mods in general (ones that add new civs.)

Unless they replace one of the original races, you are still going to get the same experience. They'll either trade with you, or siege you, and there won't be much variation there.

So how can you use custom races to make them enhance gameplay, and what are ways you can use them that doesn't work?

[Rysith]

I made the orcs as larger, stronger, faster, earlier goblins. They still siege you until you die, but they end up showing up much earlier (first winter or so). I've found that that adds significantly to the game, since you add a new "type" of race: Orcs become the "siege until you die" race and goblins become a "stealth attacking" race thanks to ambushes. Goblin sieges become laughable, since by the time they start actually laying siege, you've been dealing with 80-orc sieges for several years, and goblins are weak compared to orcs. Beyond that, though, I agree that there can't be much variation between sieging races, especially until we can have better control over the training, equipment, and numbers that a siege brings (imagine the difference between a siege of 200 novice wrestlers and a siege of 10 well-equipped Axe Lords)

That said, I think that adding a whole bunch of races to the game isn't very pointful. I could see adding trading races and differentiating them based on trade goods, but that could be difficult to justify/set up, and I'm not sure what the effect of having caravans from multiple races possible in the same season is.

The other thing that I really don't like is the addition of super-races, since those seem to turn into a generic combination of ludicrous size, unreasonable DAMBLOCK, and all the tags that you see on the megabeasts. The reason that I don't like those is that when they show up, you've either got the champion military backed by the Entrance Corridor of Doom to kill them, or you don't. There is almost never a "middle ground" where, through superior positioning or tactics you are able to defeat them (or achieve some other significant objective, like escorting a liaison out). And I think that it's been demonstrated conclusively that skills/stats have enough of an influence that a sufficiently legendary champion can take down anything coming directly from the raws in single combat.

[Demonic Gophers]

Personally, I mod in new creatures and entities primarily because I enjoy tinkering with species and cultures.  The modding is an objective on its own, not an attempt to have some particular impact on the game play.

[Vincent]

I modded in 5 different races, 2 of them initally hostile.

Gnolls, basically bigger and tougher Kobolds. Have Iron, will steal Items, (often replacing kobolds in doing so) and Siege instead of ambush. They start attacking almost immediately.

Shadowkin are size 7 siegers. Also have Iron, but won't bother attacking you until you're a duchy. Basically, slightly tougher goblins.

I modded in Orcs as size 8 proud warrior race guys. Since they live in the desert, they're about as useful as elves when It comes to goods, But if you manage to piss them off, you're in trouble. Natural DAMBLOCK of 2 and thier size means they can tar pretty much any dwarf of equal skill to shreds.

I put in Tuskarr as Walrus dudes who live in the arctic. Really, they're just dwarves that come in the winter and have tusks.

Lastly, I put in avians as a flying civ. Although this causes pathfinding problems in fortress mode when ordering them to build stuff, They work fine everywhere else. They're basically flying humans that are a lot more dangerous to piss off than anyone else, owing to that a flying bowman is a terrifying sight to behold-They can simply fly up to your fortifications and drive an arrow through your marksman's heads. The fact that they Ambush and have iron makes matters worse. Basically a fun race to annoy.

[catoblepas]

I modded in races until I had a total of 15, I wasn't far into my test play until I discovered that every one of those civilizations was at war with me, except the kobolds and goblins. Increasing the difficulty (at least for me) seems to add a lot of fun to the game, in both meanings of the word. Being sieged year-round for five straight years by different civs certainly adds a whole lot of tension to the game, and you REALLY get to appreciate things like caravans arriving.

[HonkyPunch]

I'm mainly working on trying to perfect two things (and the items creatures etc linked to them)
these two things being snow dwarves (eskimos) and salamanders.
Currently, the salamander can evaporate oceans (slowly, i must stress) and snow dwarves add some variety to what you encounter.
But, until the newest release, I can't really do what i'd like with the salamander. (Basically, it's to be a weak fighter, but extremely resistant to damage, as i'd like it to regenerate limbs, and take basically one really good hit to kill) also, it lights people on fire after wrestling with them long enough, so that's a bonus, although maybe a bit powerful. It IS a megabeast, however.

[Caz]

Tougher things to kill.

Variety.

Enhanced roleplaying.

[Zai]

Tougher things to kill.

Variety.

Enhanced roleplaying.

This sums it up quite well.

[Rysith]

Lastly, I put in avians as a flying civ. Although this causes pathfinding problems in fortress mode when ordering them to build stuff, They work fine everywhere else. They're basically flying humans that are a lot more dangerous to piss off than anyone else, owing to that a flying bowman is a terrifying sight to behold-They can simply fly up to your fortifications and drive an arrow through your marksman's heads. The fact that they Ambush and have iron makes matters worse. Basically a fun race to annoy.

That sounds like an extremely fun idea

*wanders off to make winged item-stealing elves, or something*

[Himmelhand]

I'd consider mods that increase the difficulty of farming alone to be a vast improvement to gameplay.  Suddenly it requires long-term planning and coordination of a formerly safe venue.  Salt water baaaad.

[Vincent]

Lastly, I put in avians as a flying civ. Although this causes pathfinding problems in fortress mode when ordering them to build stuff, They work fine everywhere else. They're basically flying humans that are a lot more dangerous to piss off than anyone else, owing to that a flying bowman is a terrifying sight to behold-They can simply fly up to your fortifications and drive an arrow through your marksman's heads. The fact that they Ambush and have iron makes matters worse. Basically a fun race to annoy.

That sounds like an extremely fun idea

*wanders off to make winged item-stealing elves, or something*

You're welcome.

[Fugue]

I like Rysith's Orcs, though I've only just started playing against them. I hope in future we'll be given more control over the game through the raws, since there are a lot of great ideas that either aren't feasible, or don't quite turn out as planned because of the limitations of the raws, but modding new creatures and races has so much potential.

I don't know if I take any particular philosophy to modding. I just follow inspiration.

[i2amroy]

Personally, I mod in new creatures and entities primarily because I enjoy tinkering with species and cultures.  The modding is an objective on its own, not an attempt to have some particular impact on the game play.

Agreed, however, there are some other things that I like about modding races. First of all, you aren't looking at adventure mode as well. Even if a race doesn't change fortress mode much, it can change adventure mode a lot. What with all of the cross race wars and everything. The other things are item diversity, you can create items that can only come from a certain civilization, and some of these are cool or powerful, for example, I gave my Goblins a pit meat-grinder trap, that deals only 15 gore damage when it hits, but it hits 50 times, exactly as if you dropped them into a giant meat-grinder. You can then combine this function with the activation triggers for races. I have created a blend of custom races, maybe 15 or so, with more on the way, and currently I have it set up so that if you increase your fortress in one way, then certain races with more powerful items appear, however, stronger races that siege you also appear. In fact, some races, such as my wizard race, will only appear when your fort reaches the top of a single category, in the wizards case, this is trade.

[Warlord255]

I tried my hand at race modding, trying to vary up the trading races... but it didn't feel like I could give them enough meaningful differences in goods traded, since the only real options were wood/plants, meat/leather and gems/cloth.

On the flipside of that equation, however, were the Cactaur in Legends mode. The Cactaur were supposed to be a desert-dwelling race with wooden weapons and armor; effectively, a cooler version of Elves. In legends mode, however, they had an uncanny ability to kick ass and take names. I still have a mental image of a cactus-man in a wooden mask and turban, standing heroically atop a sand dune as his brethren charge out onto the field of battle against Orcish hordes.

Next version, I'm going to see if I can make them work with their gourd-like anatomies.

[Granite26]

So it looks like a whole lot of 'make the races that attack you harder to fight' answers is all you're going to get.

Good question though.