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[eerr]

    The function that calculates straight-line distance for job items ignores z-levels.  Here are a couple reports that include simple ways to reproduce the problem: one, two, three.  It should be a quintessential one-minute fix, but I know how that goes.


I've never been able to reproduce this.  I just dug a tunnel out below a depot and the stone all reported at the correct distances including the z levels, and the code in 40d is the same.  It didn't say zero for the stone directly below the depot.  The workshop job code all uses 3D staight line distances, which are bad compared to the path distance, but it doesn't return zero for Z coordinates.

Usually people complain about dwarves literally traveling to the tile below the workshop rather than the stone pile 2 tiles away, surrounding it.
So add +10dist merely for being on a different Z level from the dwarf. Takes care of a majority even if it's not even close to accurate for extra Z levels.

If they start moving 3+ levels though there is no way in hell you can accurately measure that without the pathing algorithm, so there really isn't anything that can be done for those without a more complicated method.

[G-Flex]

So add +10dist merely for being on a different Z level from the dwarf. Takes care of a majority even if it's not even close to accurate for extra Z levels.

This would be a really poor kludge. Some of us like to put workshops directly above/below stockpiles, for instance, and there's no reason it shouldn't work fine (except for when/if it becomes more difficult for dwarves to haul things up/down stairs).

The problem is that there's often a discrepancy between linear distance and distance of the shortest path to the item. This problem just happens to be more common when z-levels are involved.

[CobaltKobold]

ZOMG a chainmaille discussion! Being someone who actually makes it i think I'm qualified to join in. FUNK is right, Chainmaille is designed to protect against slashing.Now, questions?

I don't follow what solid rings are. Butted are closed, riveted are, well, flat and punched through, and solid is... like just one long wavy wire? An unbroken spiral?

No, just literally a row made of rings with no joints whatsoever. The rows above and below would weave through via their openings, and then they would be riveted. In essence you'd alternate rows of riveted and solid rings the entire length of the maille.

"welded" (or, for copper, you could solder) Perhaps "fused"- though one must do it individually.

heck, cast a pipe and saw it carefully.

Quite a few ways to make solid rings now. Then, not sure.

[jamoecw]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8GxPOb1XKU

Skip to 5:40, that is what this conversation reminds me of.

. . .

In fact, I feel the whole movie perfectly describes any in depth DF discussion.

the bowling ball will hit the ground first due to air resistance (weight is a minor factor as well), and both will bounce, due to the compressibility of the ground, as it contains air.  the baby will bounce more than the cannon ball because the ground will break less on impact resulting in better retention of kinetic energy.

[Footkerchief]

Also while I'm on the topic of chainmaille.

Would it be to much of a request to have Chainmaille jewelry implemented at some point?

http://www.theringlord.org/forum/Index.php?app=gallery&module=cats&do=sc&cat=5?s=b798147b3a311788df65417441861f1f  Here is a gallery showing off chainmaille jewelry.

Any precedent for this in an appropriate period, say 1400 or earlier?

hmmm with the material rewrite i guess artifact weapons (and possible armor?) are nerved down or do they get some magical, weight, shearpoint, yield modifiers? Also what about the elven wood-weapons? Do the elves now manipulate the materials in some faschion?

Do we know how artifact weapons and armor, specifically artifact weapons and armor made with strange materials, will interact with the materials system? Will an artifact bone spear be able to pierce normal steel plate, or will it be largely ineffectual? Will artifact weapons and armor acquire item damage? Would an artifact gold hammer get bent or broken when I bashed it on someone's adamantium helmet?

For combat purposes, artifacts are just unusually high quality:

How do the strength values for metals interact with their effectiveness as weapons and armor?

Currently shear yield/fracture is used to determine edge effectiveness and the effectiveness of a material against a cut.  Impact yield/fracture is used to determine resistance against impacts.  Solid density will increase weight and therefore the impact of attacks.

Hmmm, how does all of this translate as far as weapon and armor quality goes? Will they still have the same effects as before?

I think I did armor quality somewhere in this post.  For weapons, it currently increases the chance to score a hit at all as usual, and it'll also make edged weapons start sharper.

[Funk]

Wait, you mean a noble that actually does something? Don't be silly, Toady would never allow such things.

thay will do  lots of thing,moan,whine,oder meals,demand that things are inportrd i.e. lead junk,change the fort guards kit(greed socks are in this year)

[Genoraven]

Also while I'm on the topic of chainmaille.

Would it be to much of a request to have Chainmaille jewelry implemented at some point?

http://www.theringlord.org/forum/Index.php?app=gallery&module=cats&do=sc&cat=5?s=b798147b3a311788df65417441861f1f  Here is a gallery showing off chainmaille jewelry.

Any precedent for this in an appropriate period, say 1400 or earlier?

Some quick Google searching didn't reveal anything. But a few of the main weaves that are used for jewelry today existed in the past. a quick consult with my Mailler friends resulted in a group "i don't know" I'll post a thread on some forums and see if someone there knows anymore. But i don't think it would be out of the realm of posibility. I think it would fit with dwarves. They have a much stronger attraction to metals and are betterat refinigh and working with metal that humans. But i'll get back to you if i find anything more out.

[Reese]

I don't follow what solid rings are. Butted are closed, riveted are, well, flat and punched through, and solid is... like just one long wavy wire? An unbroken spiral?

To expand on what Manae said, you don't have to open and close every ring when weaving maile, starting a sheet of regular maile, you would open one ring and put four in it, then open a sixth ring, thread it through two unopened, and add two closed rings to that; you only end up opening about half the rings (for standard 4 in 1 maile... different maile weaves can require more or fewer rings to be opened)

[CobaltKobold]

Reese: I believe by solid they mean unbroken, which would leave butted rings out certainly though only possibly excluding riveted rings.

Genoraven: It's pretty much given that E and J weaves were used historically for armor.  that maille jewelry is historic...dunno.

(greed socks are in this year)

I will quote this excellent typo.

[eerr]

So add +10dist merely for being on a different Z level from the dwarf. Takes care of a majority even if it's not even close to accurate for extra Z levels.

This would be a really poor kludge. Some of us like to put workshops directly above/below stockpiles, for instance, and there's no reason it shouldn't work fine (except for when/if it becomes more difficult for dwarves to haul things up/down stairs).

The problem is that there's often a discrepancy between linear distance and distance of the shortest path to the item. This problem just happens to be more common when z-levels are involved.

Well, it's exactly +10 when Z1 and Z2 are not equal.
not 10Z or anything.
So basically this only makes a difference if you happen to have stone on the same level as the dwarf, otherwise the +10 cancels out. So if your stockpiles are immediately underneath, you just need 10 tiles on the main level clear around the stockpile clear and you won't ever have a stone leakage problem. Alternatively, leave the stockpile empty and use the workshop until a 10-tile radius around the stockpile (on the same level as the workshop) is clear.

[Genoraven]

Yeah, i know it was used for armor. Just trying to find out if it was used as jewelery.

[Shrike]

Keep in mind that you didn't have just one guy outfitted in chainmaille, but a whole bunch of them. Not your whole army (why bother equipping the peasants?), but your trained infantry and archers who would directly benefit from having a means to stop sharp edges.

Making chainmaille ring by ring is exceedingly time consuming, and very inefficient to make. While the mass produced solid rows (which were formed by casting) were not as high-quality, who cared? Not the nobility, who wanted their men to have enough protection to win.

Only the nobility ever had full, link-by-link maille; today's hobbyists are demonstrating how far machining has come in terms of drawing and shaping wire.

I would think that chainmaille jewelry is entirely historical. My mother, for example, has an ornamental purse that is made of god knows how many tiny interlocking rings of metal. It feels like silk. The purse is smaller than most of our hands, as well. I can't imagine that kind of thing ever being done on a massive scale before workforce mechanization, and this thing looks quite old. It's probably not medieval, but it is an argument in favor of maille jewelry.

[Lord Shonus]

Actually, the foundation of the feudal system in Europe was based around who could afford a byrnie (the term used at the time to denote a chainmail shirt.) The size of the fief granted by Charles the Great was directly based on the number of byrnies a lord could provide.

[Shoku]

ZOMG a chainmaille discussion! Being someone who actually makes it i think I'm qualified to join in. FUNK is right, Chainmaille is designed to protect against slashing.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

"Goodness... the way people keep talking I am starting to seriously wonder what the point of Chainmail is."

In DF right now, yes you are right, but in real life chainmaille is flexible where plate is not. Which is why even when plate became very popular they would still wear chainmaille underneath to protect the joints.


As to the arrow vs. maille discussion:

It depends on a number of factors, like material quality, ring size(AR) and the closures.

Quality is....well quality, if you have it made out of like pigiron or some crap like that your maille wont stop anything.

Ring size plays an important roll as does the AR (Aspect Ratio which is the ratio between the inner diameter of each ring to the wire diameter.) High ARs result is maille that is very loose where the opposite is true for a Low AR.

There are 2 types of closures for historical maille. They are butted rings and riveted. Butted maille is maille where each ring is "closed" by butting the ends together. You would be very lucky to have butted maille stop an arrow as there is nothing to prevent the rings from being pushed apart as the arrow impacts. Riveted maille is where each ring is riveted shut, buy having the ends of each ring flattened, then punching a hole through them and riveting them. This can be supplemented in strength by replacing every other row of rings with solid rings. That is, ones without closures. Riveted maille is much much stronger than butted maille in every regard, but it also takes about twice as long to make. Now an arrow hitting a riveted ring with an arrow there is still a chance the rivet can break and split the ring apart. But an arrow hitting a solid ring would likely stop an arrow depending on how much energy it still has.

All that being said, maille was never arrow proof or anything like that.

Also, adamantine chainmaille would be INCREDIBLY difficult to make, because of its hardness. It would make the chance of a ring breaking when you bend it shut and if it doesn't break the ring will likely be warped which would compromise the strength of the maille.

Now, questions?

I don't follow what solid rings are. Butted are closed, riveted are, well, flat and punched through, and solid is... like just one long wavy wire? An unbroken spiral?

No, just literally a row made of rings with no joints whatsoever. The rows above and below would weave through via their openings, and then they would be riveted. In essence you'd alternate rows of riveted and solid rings the entire length of the maille.

So they're like diecast?

    The function that calculates straight-line distance for job items ignores z-levels.  Here are a couple reports that include simple ways to reproduce the problem: one, two, three.  It should be a quintessential one-minute fix, but I know how that goes.


I've never been able to reproduce this.  I just dug a tunnel out below a depot and the stone all reported at the correct distances including the z levels, and the code in 40d is the same.  It didn't say zero for the stone directly below the depot.  The workshop job code all uses 3D staight line distances, which are bad compared to the path distance, but it doesn't return zero for Z coordinates.

Usually people complain about dwarves literally traveling to the tile below the workshop rather than the stone pile 2 tiles away, surrounding it.
So add +10dist merely for being on a different Z level from the dwarf. Takes care of a majority even if it's not even close to accurate for extra Z levels.

If they start moving 3+ levels though there is no way in hell you can accurately measure that without the pathing algorithm, so there really isn't anything that can be done for those without a more complicated method.

But some people have workshop layouts that specifically give workshops stockpiles right below them.

I guess it's only an issue with stones though.

[Genoraven]

Solid rings are like washers, only in chainmaille proportions.