Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Genoraven]

Good point sir.

[Martin]

Too soon to start asking for an iPad version of DF?

[dreiche2]

Now, questions?

Well, I think we might have addressed most points by now, but for the record, the original question was more about what the advantages of say a mail over a plate would be, if any. I think it would be mostly issues of flexibility (for movement, not protection), etc.

[Lord Shonus]

It was also available for centuries before plate was, so a great many more people had the training to make it.

[Neonivek]

Well ignoring how Platemail protects you with its mass... It also, unlike chainmail, is solid meaning that the force is distrubuted to the armor as a whole rather then centered entirely in one spot (to an extent)

Though here is a question:

Is chainmail often layered when worn alone? (or rather not under plate) People always picture a "Chain shirt" when someone says Chainmail and while I am pretty sure they layer it I probably should make sure.

[Calenth]

Well how they make ANYTHING out of Adamantine is a mystery in it of itself since it is incapable of bending without breaking. It also has such a high boiling point that the Furnace would suffer a meltdown before it would ever soften the metal.

I assume magic is involved. Perhaps not in spells but in that maybe there is some sort of secret technique that takes advantage of an unseen/unknown property of adamantine to mold the strands the way they want.

(That is right. Adamantine is Woven)

Though they COULD be put together like some sort of odd endless monkey chain.

Yeah, I think the presumption is that it's "magical" in some fashion. I tend to imagine it being like epoxy glue -- something that can be mined, woven, then "set" into a final, unbreakable form.

And now that I know green is the color for question-asking etiquette, i'll try to strike gold twice in a row:


Do we know how artifact weapons and armor, specifically artifact weapons and armor made with strange materials, will interact with the materials system? Will an artifact bone spear be able to pierce normal steel plate, or will it be largely ineffectual? Will artifact weapons and armor acquire item damage? Would an artifact gold hammer get bent or broken when I bashed it on someone's adamantium helmet?

[Mephansteras]

Well ignoring how Platemail protects you with its mass... It also, unlike chainmail, is solid meaning that the force is distrubuted to the armor as a whole rather then centered entirely in one spot (to an extent)

Though here is a question:

Is chainmail often layered when worn alone? (or rather not under plate) People always picture a "Chain shirt" when someone says Chainmail and while I am pretty sure they layer it I probably should make sure.

Chainmail was typically worn over as a hauburk (think long coat) over a gambeson (thick quilted padding) or over leather. It could be layered, but that'd be both very expensive and very heavy, so I'm not sure how much that was done beyond the hood of a mail coif resting on the shoulders.

Like many things, though, there was no *one* way that everyone did things. Many different styles, sizes, and whatnot were used over the centuries by different groups for different purposes and reasons.

[Genoraven]

Though here is a question:

Is chainmail often layered when worn alone? (or rather not under plate) People always picture a "Chain shirt" when someone says Chainmail and while I am pretty sure they layer it I probably should make sure.

 You mean like, more than one layer of chainmaille? If so then no. Not that i know of at least.

[RedKing]

Too soon to start asking for an iPad version of DF?

With finger tracing support! I want to give my dorfs orders with the finger! 

[Lancensis]

Too soon to start asking for an iPad version of DF?

With finger tracing support! I want to give my dorfs orders with the finger! 

I'm hoping that Version One will support headset controll, so you can bicker with your dwarves in real time. And wake up your soldiers by screaming into the mic.

[Shoku]

hmmm with the material rewrite i guess artifact weapons (and possible armor?) are nerved down or do they get some magical, weight, shearpoint, yield modifiers? Also what about the elven wood-weapons? Do the elves now manipulate the materials in some faschion?

Artefact weapons wouldnt be a big loss for now i guess but advanced elven weapons would give them a advantage to survive a serious fight - thankfully they outbreed theyr losses.

I thought artifact was just a quality modifier like + or *, meaning that the material gets a % modifier (bonus) from it.

ZOMG a chainmaille discussion! Being someone who actually makes it i think I'm qualified to join in. FUNK is right, Chainmaille is designed to protect against slashing.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

"Goodness... the way people keep talking I am starting to seriously wonder what the point of Chainmail is."

In DF right now, yes you are right, but in real life chainmaille is flexible where plate is not. Which is why even when plate became very popular they would still wear chainmaille underneath to protect the joints.


As to the arrow vs. maille discussion:

It depends on a number of factors, like material quality, ring size(AR) and the closures.

Quality is....well quality, if you have it made out of like pigiron or some crap like that your maille wont stop anything.

Ring size plays an important roll as does the AR (Aspect Ratio which is the ratio between the inner diameter of each ring to the wire diameter.) High ARs result is maille that is very loose where the opposite is true for a Low AR.

There are 2 types of closures for historical maille. They are butted rings and riveted. Butted maille is maille where each ring is "closed" by butting the ends together. You would be very lucky to have butted maille stop an arrow as there is nothing to prevent the rings from being pushed apart as the arrow impacts. Riveted maille is where each ring is riveted shut, buy having the ends of each ring flattened, then punching a hole through them and riveting them. This can be supplemented in strength by replacing every other row of rings with solid rings. That is, ones without closures. Riveted maille is much much stronger than butted maille in every regard, but it also takes about twice as long to make. Now an arrow hitting a riveted ring with an arrow there is still a chance the rivet can break and split the ring apart. But an arrow hitting a solid ring would likely stop an arrow depending on how much energy it still has.

All that being said, maille was never arrow proof or anything like that.

Also, adamantine chainmaille would be INCREDIBLY difficult to make, because of its hardness. It would make the chance of a ring breaking when you bend it shut and if it doesn't break the ring will likely be warped which would compromise the strength of the maille.

Now, questions?

I don't follow what solid rings are. Butted are closed, riveted are, well, flat and punched through, and solid is... like just one long wavy wire? An unbroken spiral?

[Martin]

I'd like to be able to tilt the device to the right and have all the loose stone roll up against the left side of walls. Shake the device to simulate the effects of the red lever of doom.

[Deon]

[RESPONSIBILITY:SORT_AMMUNITION]

Does it mean that it will be possible to sort ammo stacks and to combine separate arrows and to assign it to a specific "noble"?! Wow...
So we could make an ammo sorter job:
[POSITION:AMMO_SORTER]
  [NUMBER:50]
  [RESPONSIBILITY:SORT_AMMUNITION]
  [APPOINTED_BY:EXPEDITION_LEADER]
  [APPOINTED_BY:MAYOR]

?

I hope it's not a placeholder and actual ammo sorting mechanics are in, right?

[Manae]

ZOMG a chainmaille discussion! Being someone who actually makes it i think I'm qualified to join in. FUNK is right, Chainmaille is designed to protect against slashing.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

"Goodness... the way people keep talking I am starting to seriously wonder what the point of Chainmail is."

In DF right now, yes you are right, but in real life chainmaille is flexible where plate is not. Which is why even when plate became very popular they would still wear chainmaille underneath to protect the joints.


As to the arrow vs. maille discussion:

It depends on a number of factors, like material quality, ring size(AR) and the closures.

Quality is....well quality, if you have it made out of like pigiron or some crap like that your maille wont stop anything.

Ring size plays an important roll as does the AR (Aspect Ratio which is the ratio between the inner diameter of each ring to the wire diameter.) High ARs result is maille that is very loose where the opposite is true for a Low AR.

There are 2 types of closures for historical maille. They are butted rings and riveted. Butted maille is maille where each ring is "closed" by butting the ends together. You would be very lucky to have butted maille stop an arrow as there is nothing to prevent the rings from being pushed apart as the arrow impacts. Riveted maille is where each ring is riveted shut, buy having the ends of each ring flattened, then punching a hole through them and riveting them. This can be supplemented in strength by replacing every other row of rings with solid rings. That is, ones without closures. Riveted maille is much much stronger than butted maille in every regard, but it also takes about twice as long to make. Now an arrow hitting a riveted ring with an arrow there is still a chance the rivet can break and split the ring apart. But an arrow hitting a solid ring would likely stop an arrow depending on how much energy it still has.

All that being said, maille was never arrow proof or anything like that.

Also, adamantine chainmaille would be INCREDIBLY difficult to make, because of its hardness. It would make the chance of a ring breaking when you bend it shut and if it doesn't break the ring will likely be warped which would compromise the strength of the maille.

Now, questions?

I don't follow what solid rings are. Butted are closed, riveted are, well, flat and punched through, and solid is... like just one long wavy wire? An unbroken spiral?

No, just literally a row made of rings with no joints whatsoever. The rows above and below would weave through via their openings, and then they would be riveted. In essence you'd alternate rows of riveted and solid rings the entire length of the maille.

[James.Denholm]

Does it mean that it will be possible to sort ammo stackSo we could make an ammo sorter job?

I hope it's not a placeholder and actual ammo sorting mechanics are in, right?

Wait, you mean a noble that actually does something? Don't be silly, Toady would never allow such things.