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[Dakk]

A tribes of hunters-gatherers are not a civilization for they have no significal government, large settlements, similar religious beliefs and much less sense of sovereign. While they may compose a nation (even if not united in a single group), they lack the unity to be considered a civilization.

If you're saying they don't have religions...
And sense of sovereign would exclude a lot of people from "first world" areas today...

I didn't say they weren't religious, I said they lack the similar unified belief system that can be observed in all civilizations, (like the greeks following only the greek pantheon, romans following the roman one, Byzantium, Babylon, etc). Almost every time, each tribe has a different set of beliefs.

You have an extremely hypersimplistic view of Greco-Roman religion. The pantheons did not work that way. Different city-states/regions often had quite variable ideas of who was worth worshipping and why. You see the same sort of thing in ancient Egypt. Things were not unified.

You're misunderstanding me when I say "unified pantheons". I don't mean unified as "here are our gods, choose one", but rather "hey, you have a different god, he and my god must be related in some way!". The greco-roman pantheon gods, despite being stark different from eachother at times, often were regarded as having a similar origin or a something to link their existences with eachother. Athens worshipped Athena, sparta worshiped Ares, but both accepted the fact they were both under the same godly family.

What you often see in tribal hunter-gatherer societies is that a tribe will worship something (the sky, for example), while other will worship something completely unrelated (ancestor spirits, an animal, etc), and the beliefs have no real cultural link with eachother.

[G-Flex]

What you often see in tribal hunter-gatherer societies is that a tribe will worship something (the sky, for example), while other will worship something completely unrelated (ancestor spirits, an animal, etc), and the beliefs have no real cultural link with eachother.

How is this any different from two distinct larger civilizations having no cultural links with each other?

[Dakk]

What you often see in tribal hunter-gatherer societies is that a tribe will worship something (the sky, for example), while other will worship something completely unrelated (ancestor spirits, an animal, etc), and the beliefs have no real cultural link with eachother.

How is this any different from two distinct larger civilizations having no cultural links with each other?

Because, say, a civilization is often regarded as more then a group of 400 people without permanent settlements and thus, no real sovereign?

[G-Flex]

Wait, since when did "tribal" mean "nomadic"?

[Lord Shonus]

The current discussion is about hunter-gatherers, which are by nature nomadic.

[Dakk]

The current discussion is about hunter-gatherers, which are by nature nomadic.

^This, and the fact 90% of the time the term "nomadic" is applied to a group of individuals, said group is a tribe.

[Name Lips]

Pro tip: Most arguments on the internet stem from people using different definitions for the same words. Reduced to their fundamentals, the argument is simply over whose definition is better.

[Cardinal]

You should avoid referring to nomads--otherwise you'll mix up hunter-gatherers and pastoralists. The latter, though they often had animist style religions, like the Mongols worshipping the Big Blue Sky, had much larger and more complicated than the former. DF should include the ability to follow a pastoralist lifeway.

[nordo]

*cough cough*
...
Vaporware.

[Neonivek]

*cough cough*
...
Vaporware.

Where did this come from and what is it even refering to?

[atomfullerene]

In response to several things: (spoilered because some people don't want to go off topic about anthropology)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

First, Name Lips is right, we are in conflict over the meaning of "civilization" moreso than the basic ideas involved

Secondly, Shonus, I do think civilization should be taken to mean a large group of people with several distinct levels of organization, typically characterized by buildings, agriculture, and classes of people devoted to things other than food production (although I agree that art is universal).  This excludes many hunter gatherer societies, but that shouldn't be taken to mean their cultures are inferior.  If civilization means any group of humans, it is synonymous with culture or society, and is therefore redundant and less useful than if it means the current complex way of life as opposed to the original hunter-gatherer or small village farmer way of life.

Thirdly, it's important to keep the terms hunter gatherer and nomad separate.  Not all hunter gatherers are nomadic, many stick to a well defined territory even if they don't sleep in the same spot every night.  Not all nomads are hunter gatherers either, most are probably herders who follow and live off their domestic animals.  And tribal generally refers to a level of organization bringing together a number of clans, themselves composed of a number of families.  Its another thing altogether.

Fourthly, you are right about early groups consisting of more than just 30 people...I hesitated to put that down even as I typed it.  Still, not all those hundreds would actually be in the same spot at the same time most of the time, and 30 is within an order of magnitude anyway, which is what I was getting at really.

Fifthly,   Furries with insects?  Chitonies?  goes a long way towards explaining antmen I guess.  Lets avoid slugmen.

[Neonivek]

Well the animalmen defy quite a bit of their natural counterparts. (well usually their solitary nature. Tigers I think don't make packs greater then 2 members)

Anyhow yes Hunter and Gathering societies don't have to even move and not all forms of nomadic society are the same (For example some are just migratory and simply go to multiple established homes).

Though as far as the game is concerned both nomads and pre-aggricultural societies are civilisations though I DO see reasons for them to get different classifications under certain circumstances (but then again I do see reasons for these exceptions to extend to even more technologically advanced societies)

[Morrigi]

Toady hasn't been on here for who the hell knows how long... Where is he?

[Neonivek]

Toady hasn't been on here for who the hell knows how long... Where is he?

QUICK to the Toady Signal!

[seigenblues]

SO BRINGING IT BACK TO THE DWARVES.

*ahem*

right.

I am going to lose it when this release finally makes it out.  Every day i check for the devlog update, like some damn religion, and every day i hit this thread to find it -- well, to find it full of crap, really.  Could we keep it on the dwarves?  The guys with the magma?  Yeah?  Thanks.  Anyway, where was I.  right.

I'm gonna lose it when this game comes out, carpal-tunnel, forgetting-to-eat lose it.  Reviewing the google doc with all the new features made my jaw drop.  I loved DF already, but it was too easy.  Harder underground?  Infinite sieges?  Maybe even digging monsters?!?  Be still my heart.  I was hoping it could come out over xmas so i could play it without losing touch with my life, but that clearly hasn't happened...   I'm hoping it gets out before january is through but i fear it won't be until mid-feb. 

"Happy Valentines Day, G/F!  I'll see you in a few weeks, gaunt and staring!"

So consulting "The List" -- that ostensible subject of this thread -- i see basically three things.

1) Ropes.  Do we care?  can he just release as is?
2) Underground areas isn't greened out yet.  CLOSE ENOUGH ALREADY
3) Everything else.  Cat bug?  two lines  .  Hydra test?  He probably did it already. Compat issues?  Who cares, everyone's gonna upgrade.  Misc bug reports &c...  Which leaves merging with 40d#. .  As a coder myself, I can see this taking a fair bit of time.

If he takes his weekend days at end of january, then... a few days for 1, a few days for 2, a week for 3 and we're in february.  Damn.  Excuse me, i'm gonna go over to a pledge-a-thon thread...

Any other suggestions?  Thoughts?  Reasons to keep hoping it'll actually come out tomorrow?