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[Neruz]

Brain cells last as long as they need to. The Brain is certainly more static than, say the testes, but it changes like the rest of the body. Old neurones die, new ones are born, old connections wither, new ones are formed.

Actually, no, no new neurons are created after your birth, only connections. Mechanically severed connections do regenerate, but dead cell is dead forever, there is no replacement.

Simply put, anytime you manage to kill of some neurons they are gone for good. Have fun drinking

Old and incorrect. It was discovered not that long ago that new neruons do indeed grow in adult brains.

It's called Neurogenesis.

[smjjames]

There is evidence that stem cells placed into the brain will develop into new neurons.

The brain is an incredibly complex organ and like Shoku or someone said earlier, it would be a good idea to have some experts here.

Anyways, I'm wondering about the rope/ladder thing, Toady has been putting that one on the back burner for quite a while. Most people are in agreement that it will be important for effective expansion with the new caverns. Its not game breakingly critical since we'll have to take the long way around or set up an advance team.

Edit: Semi-ninja'd by Neruz.

[Neruz]

Scroll down on the wikipedia page; it has an entry on adult neural stem cells.

[smjjames]

Yea I saw that when I checked it out. I was pretty much on the same track you were, just in a different way.

[Chthonic]

Maybe instead of rope ladders, we could have hoists.  Build it like a well--need a block, a mechanism, and a rope--and when it's manned by a dwarf with pump operator enabled (maybe generalized to machinery operator) it allows other dwarves (and animals, since they use the same pathing ) to zip-line up and down like buckets.

If anyone's interested enough to look into it, Glial Neurobiology by Verkhratsky and Butt describes the path of development from glial cell to neuron.

[Gara-nis]

So far neurogenesis in the adult human brain has only been proven to occur in certain areas of the brain such as the hippocampus. Rabbit studies have shown neurogenesis in the neocortex. Overall, it seems that the brain doesn't just willy-nilly create new cells all the time. Neurogenesis only occurs under specific conditions.

The hippocampus is responsible for a lot of memory functions in the brain, and has been demonstrated to actually increase in size in people who do certain jobs regularly, such as pathfinding (taxi cab drivers).

High chronic doses of cannabinoid compounds have been shown to increase the rate of neurogenesis in the hippocampus. It is the only regularly abused drug compound that does this. Most other substances abused by humans cause the opposite effect, namely impairing neurogenesis and causing various cognitive deficits.

Alcohol intoxication does cause oxidative stress and apoptosis (cellular suicide) in the brain. This has been proven in rat studies, but I'm not sure about human studies other than neuropsych evaluation studies.

Now, how all that would extend to dwarf brains, I don't know. It could be that ethanol has a completely different effect in vivo in dwarves.

[Osmosis Jones]

Ya know, you could probably argue that the in vivo exposure to alcohol is what makes them dwarves; alcohol consumption in pregnant women has been linked to stunted growth IIRC.

[Kidiri]

There should really be a list of things that are discussed here, which are semi/pseudo-off-topic. Like this brain damage discussion, the possibilities of FTL-travel from a while ago and most likely many many more. Also, there's only one forum, that I know of and frequent, where there are more intelligent discussions on various topics. But I think that's to be expected from the xkcd fora.

[Muno syoan]

We're going off mammalian (human) biology. I think this is a mistake. How's about the idea that they're an example of parallel evolution, resulting in a similar shape but different biological features (like marsupials, but taken further).
Then you could infer alcoholism as a biological normal rather than an extreme or hazardous state, with the presence of genes producing enzymes that would break down ethanol into carbohydrates unless the system gets flooded with a massive amount of substrate (i.e, you drink a LOT). You could also state without argument different types, concentrations and positions of receptor binding sites on host tissues, changing the rate of uptake of alcohol. In short, their drinks could be going literally right through them.

[Neruz]

Alternately, it's fiction and Alcohol isn't a poison for Dwarves.

[Gara-nis]

Then you could infer alcoholism as a biological normal rather than an extreme or hazardous state, with the presence of genes producing enzymes that would break down ethanol into carbohydrates unless the system gets flooded with a massive amount of substrate (i.e, you drink a LOT). You could also state without argument different types, concentrations and positions of receptor binding sites on host tissues, changing the rate of uptake of alcohol. In short, their drinks could be going literally right through them.

I would say the opposite, especially given my observation that, when a dwarf heads to the booze stockpile, he ends up drinking enough booze for any human to get utterly blasted. But the dwarf doesn't get dangerously intoxicated-- No, the dwarf calmly sets down the barrel, goes back to whatever he was doing, and happily works his ass off for like a month.  I would say given the observation that dwarf metabolism of alcohol is either extremely slow, or ethanol gets rapidly converted to some sort of long-lasting cellular fuel and stored in specialized tissues somewhere on the dwarf's body.

The above also makes sense given that dwarf work output decreases dramatically in the absence of alcohol. With the exception of depression, in dwarves, the symptoms of alcohol withdrawal mimic those of malnutrition, not the classic human withdrawal syndrome.

[sproingie]

I would say they get good and rowdy with foam in their beards and can hold their ale and are otherwise swarthy bearded manly sort of men (and women, and children) and that it's a fantasy trope that utterly falls apart on rigorous analysis or other such failure to suspend disbelief.

I wouldn't complain, but this whole "dwarfs drink to stay sober" thing is really starting to grate on me.  Now fetch me an ale!

[Thanshin]

Dwarves are naturally gifted with a wisdom much above any other sentient creature.

A wisdom that lets them understand the world as it really is, instead of lying to themselves.

An understanding like that is incompatible with happiness. A fact that dwarves, in their wisdom, saw with crystal clarity.

From the very beginning, they taught themselves to drink, constantly, to keep the dangers of that wisdom at bay.

[tfaal]

The above also makes sense given that dwarf work output decreases dramatically in the absence of alcohol. With the exception of depression, in dwarves, the symptoms of alcohol withdrawal mimic those of malnutrition, not the classic human withdrawal syndrome.

The only problem here is that dwarves don't need alcohol to survive, just to remain efficient. They don't suffer any physical stat penalties, and they never die of "malinebriation". They just keep taking more and more breaks. If I'm not mistaken, their work even gets done at the same rate. They just do less of it. Isn't it more likely that dwarves don't physically need alcohol, and aren't harmed by it, but simply need it to remain mentally stable? Kind of like social interaction is for humans?

[Gara-nis]

The only problem here is that dwarves don't need alcohol to survive, just to remain efficient. They don't suffer any physical stat penalties, and they never die of "malinebriation". They just keep taking more and more breaks. If I'm not mistaken, their work even gets done at the same rate. They just do less of it. Isn't it more likely that dwarves don't physically need alcohol, and aren't harmed by it, but simply need it to remain mentally stable? Kind of like social interaction is for humans?

I guess the root question is: Does alcohol grant dwarves a performance boost, or does lack of alcohol inflict a performance decrease? Do dwarves actually get mentally unstable without alcohol?