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[Neruz]

Personally i think that survivable brain damage should be rare, that makes it something interesting and unique, do we really want to make something so amazing into something mundane?

Plus, Toady appears to be going down the route of realistic wounds. If you look at the dev notes and read the thingies he puts in the dev talk it's pretty ovbious that Toady intends for wounds and injuries to be exceedingly lethal; which is a good thing, as it will give the player some incentive to try and avoid mindlessly mangling his dwarves for the lulz.

[darkflagrance]

actaully, personality changes due to DO happen, and seem to be semi-common. 

http://www.wellsphere.com/general-medicine-article/brain-injury-what-you-probably-don-t-know/360653?query=Brain+Injury+And+Personality+Changes

They're alot more common in this modern time due to improved medicine.

In the 1400s, brain damage usually meant you were dead. Either by infection, or by bad medical practices.

Eh, not really. There's a reason why the phrase "dropped on one's head as a child" was pretty common once. Milder forms of brain damage simply result in aberrant but tolerable personalities.

[Neruz]

actaully, personality changes due to DO happen, and seem to be semi-common. 

http://www.wellsphere.com/general-medicine-article/brain-injury-what-you-probably-don-t-know/360653?query=Brain+Injury+And+Personality+Changes

They're alot more common in this modern time due to improved medicine.

In the 1400s, brain damage usually meant you were dead. Either by infection, or by bad medical practices.

Eh, not really. There's a reason why the phrase "dropped on one's head as a child" was pretty common once. Milder forms of brain damage simply result in aberrant but tolerable personalities.

It's unlikely that that kind of damage actually has anything to do with being dropped on one's head and more likely that one was simply born that way.

If you smack someone on the head hard enough to actually cause personality altering brain damage, then they have bigger problems to worry about.


Ovbiously it does also depend on what you define as 'rare'.

[Innominate]

actaully, personality changes due to DO happen, and seem to be semi-common. 

http://www.wellsphere.com/general-medicine-article/brain-injury-what-you-probably-don-t-know/360653?query=Brain+Injury+And+Personality+Changes

They're alot more common in this modern time due to improved medicine.

In the 1400s, brain damage usually meant you were dead. Either by infection, or by bad medical practices.

Eh, not really. There's a reason why the phrase "dropped on one's head as a child" was pretty common once. Milder forms of brain damage simply result in aberrant but tolerable personalities.

It's unlikely that that kind of damage actually has anything to do with being dropped on one's head and more likely that one was simply born that way.

If you smack someone on the head hard enough to actually cause personality altering brain damage, then they have bigger problems to worry about.


Ovbiously it does also depend on what you define as 'rare'.

As far as I know shaken baby syndrome was more common in earlier times, and it has an estimated 20-25% mortality rate even today. Dropping a baby on its head, however, would be fatal, or at the very least severely debilitating, in almost all cases. Babies have little in the way of protection for the brain; the skull isn't even complete.

But for an adult, you pretty much need a prolonged battering of the head to cause non-fatal brain damage. Lots of boxers for example develop spasming conditions after taking too many punches. If you managed to cause permanent brain damage in one sitting and not kill somebody, it would almost certainly be from oxygen deprivation or nitrogen bubbles.

[Antagonist]

But for an adult, you pretty much need a prolonged battering of the head to cause non-fatal brain damage. Lots of boxers for example develop spasming conditions after taking too many punches. If you managed to cause permanent brain damage in one sitting and not kill somebody, it would almost certainly be from oxygen deprivation or nitrogen bubbles.

I honestly really like that.  Any single heavy brain damage is more often than not fatal, but wrestlers or hammerers with bad luck and great perseverence will tend to develop... quirks...

[Lord Shonus]

actaully, personality changes due to DO happen, and seem to be semi-common. 

http://www.wellsphere.com/general-medicine-article/brain-injury-what-you-probably-don-t-know/360653?query=Brain+Injury+And+Personality+Changes

They're alot more common in this modern time due to improved medicine.

In the 1400s, brain damage usually meant you were dead. Either by infection, or by bad medical practices.

Eh, not really. There's a reason why the phrase "dropped on one's head as a child" was pretty common once. Milder forms of brain damage simply result in aberrant but tolerable personalities.

It's unlikely that that kind of damage actually has anything to do with being dropped on one's head and more likely that one was simply born that way.

If you smack someone on the head hard enough to actually cause personality altering brain damage, then they have bigger problems to worry about.


Ovbiously it does also depend on what you define as 'rare'.

As far as I know shaken baby syndrome was more common in earlier times, and it has an estimated 20-25% mortality rate even today. Dropping a baby on its head, however, would be fatal, or at the very least severely debilitating, in almost all cases. Babies have little in the way of protection for the brain; the skull isn't even complete.

But for an adult, you pretty much need a prolonged battering of the head to cause non-fatal brain damage. Lots of boxers for example develop spasming conditions after taking too many punches. If you managed to cause permanent brain damage in one sitting and not kill somebody, it would almost certainly be from oxygen deprivation or nitrogen bubbles.

Subdural Hematoma could cause it as well, although that's more likely to kill you withput treatment.

[JoshuaFH]

I don't know, I think it would be pretty depressing to see my newly recovered brain damage victim stop what they were doing and start seizuring all over the place.

[Shoku]

So I wouldn't say brain damage leaving you alive but afflicted is as "extremely rare" as you make it out to be.

Ya, there's just one little descriptive chunk that will clear it up: brain damage from fighting(or work accidents) should be mostly lethal.

[LordZorintrhox]

I don't know, I think it would be pretty depressing to see my newly recovered brain damage victim stop what they were doing and start seizuring all over the place.

O_o

But it'd be one of those "holy crap, that's in here too!?" moments.  Like moss...

[Chthonic]

So I wouldn't say brain damage leaving you alive but afflicted is as "extremely rare" as you make it out to be.

Ya, there's just one little descriptive chunk that will clear it up: brain damage from fighting(or work accidents) should be mostly lethal.

I think that before we accept the blanket statement that brain damage should be mostly lethal, we should have an expert chime in.  The brain's very modular, and location of trauma has a huge effect on what happens.  I mean . . . brain stem gets damaged, you're probably toast.  Hypothalamus gets damaged, probably toast.  Anything having to do with maintaining homeostasis, and your outlook's not too rosy.  Obviously, any attack that immediately immediately pulverizes everything in your skull will encompass these areas which are vital to minute-by-minute function.

I'm reasonably sure, though, that anything causing damage in other ways--glancing blows by blunt objects, concussions, slashing injuries by smaller weapons, and especially piercing attacks--maybe things like spears assuming the area affected is limited, but especially bolts and arrows--is going to cause a variety of behavioral issues. 

I'd imagine seizures would be one of the most common manifestations, on par with blindness and loss of other senses or motor dysfunctions.  Probably more likely than, "Hey!  I like Olivine!", anyway.

edit: and by "an expert," I don't mean me.

[Vicomt]

Don't forget trepanning. used for millenia as a way to let the "bad spirits" out. Don't remember too much about evidence, but I'm sure I've seen reports of it used in injury situations, and possibly even helped people survive, although the chances of that were much lower than modern techniques which are actually very similar, but much cleaner.

[Emily Murkpaddled]

I don't know, I think it would be pretty depressing to see my newly recovered brain damage victim stop what they were doing and start seizuring all over the place.

Agreed. There's an adage that usually gets tossed around which hasn't yet -- it's important that additional features add fun or gameplay depth.

This doesn't add depth, because the very crux of it is that "we can't do anything about brain injuries." If they act like other injuries and just make the dwarf bedridden? That's cool, that's how I understand this concept should work. If they make the dwarf start doing something else, like forgetting jobs or who she's married to? I can't do anything about that. Why isn't the dwarf just bedridden?

Whether it adds "fun" is more contestable, but I don't think there are enough "personality matters" decisions in the game (nor a high enough resolution to observe them) that this is a fair argument right now. What kind of 'quirks' do you envision? If Toady were to go out of his way and add entirely new actions, then I could understand this working out -- battered dwarves who constantly took breaks to commiserate with the fortress's war dogs, or something like that. But I think that this would still more be "zany for the sake of zany" than "personality matters," no matter how it was implemented at present. Probably best to wait for the arc where socialization will be tackled.

EDIT: Trepanation would be a legitimate way to tackle the most commonly fatal brain injuries for adults. It's not out of the question to implement!

[jokermatt999]

So, thanks to today's update, it seems like gremlins will be Fun incarnate. Pulling ftw levers, letting megabeasts loose, and sneaking up from underground? I think fire imps may have a challenger for "creature that has most often screwed over my fort".

[Gara-nis]

Remember folks, with a realistic dwarf-brain comes the possibility of dwarflings being born with some... er... defects.

Gumpy Bentface, simpleton cancels Eat: Cannot use hands properly.
Gumpy Bentface, simpleton has become enraged!

or worse:
Gumpy Bentface, simpleton cancels Drink: Doesn't like booze.
Gumpy Bentface, simpleton is throwing a tantrum!

[webadict]

So, thanks to today's update, it seems like gremlins will be Fun incarnate. Pulling ftw levers, letting megabeasts loose, and sneaking up from underground? I think fire imps may have a challenger for "creature that has most often screwed over my fort".

I think Dwarves are the creature that most screws over everyone's forts.