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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items  (Read 3668636 times)

Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #9540 on: December 30, 2009, 05:34:28 am »

Is it possible to set litter size for a specific caste? For example, a goblin Warden Mother that could have litters of hundreds of goblin pups?

The quote I just posted above should answer that:

The number of tokens that are creature rather than caste specific is very small.  Creatures handle the overall name, biome, whether the creature is considered fanciful/doesn't exist (for art), vermin information (so, no, Fault, sorry!... too much depends on that right now), whether groups hang together closely, whether it is mundane (from real Earth for age name purposes), population information including good/evil/savage, if it is equipment, sphere information (not sure how long that'll last, but there were annoyances), and that looks like it (they also have some general categories that have caste overrides, like child names and speeches for adv mode).  Everything else, including body information, is held in the castes.

(yes)
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slMagnvox

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #9541 on: December 30, 2009, 05:42:20 am »

Will the effectiveness of weapons and armor (damage/defense) still be based on the old material values?  I.e. steel 1.3x, iron 1.0x, bronze 0.75x, copper 0.66x and everything else 0.5x.

The addition of custom workshops made me curious.  If I were to make a custom workshop that produced short swords, would the specific type of short sword have to be specified?  Currently when making a sword at the forge I have to choose the material so I suspect any custom workshop I design would have to ask the user to specify iron short sword or steel short sword, etc..  But could a short sword job be designed that accepted any input material?  And would the resulting short sword be a schist short sword or a fox leather short sword depending on what material the dwarf grabbed for the job?  And what skill would be called when the dwarf in question grabs a pile of leather and heads to the custom sword workshop?

Could I design a sword shop that required multiple ingredients and produced a decorated sword?  I would ask the workshop to produce a silver tooled steel short sword and the dwarf job would require a bar of steel, a bar of silver and a pile of leather.  The sword produced would be <<steel short sword>> decorated with the silver and leather?

Have we been given any info on the mod/tagging interface used in custom workshop design?  Sorry if I couldn't find it with a casual search.
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SirPenguin

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #9542 on: December 30, 2009, 10:28:22 am »

Quote
Will the effectiveness of weapons and armor (damage/defense) still be based on the old material values?  I.e. steel 1.3x, iron 1.0x, bronze 0.75x, copper 0.66x and everything else 0.5x.

Nope, and honestly this is one of the things I'm personally most excited for. Weapons and armor now have numbers based on actual real world properties of the material they're made out of. Because its based on multiple properties (elasticity, yield, fracture, edge and density) this moves us away from a tier system of metals (where one is greater than the other) to a more give-and-take system.

Like, take leather. Leather will perform better against blunt weapons than plate armor would. Before, in the old system, there was no reason to wear leather armor.

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SimRobert2001

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #9543 on: December 30, 2009, 11:06:18 am »



Like, take leather. Leather will perform better against blunt weapons than plate armor would. Before, in the old system, there was no reason to wear leather armor.



sure there was.  THe leather would stack along with plate armor.
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Misterstone

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #9544 on: December 30, 2009, 12:07:25 pm »

I don't buy it.  According to the principals of realism it seems to me that plate should still be better or at least no worse at blocking damage from bunt weapons compared to leather armor- people wore padding under it after all.
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Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #9545 on: December 30, 2009, 12:11:00 pm »

I agree that SirPenguin's example about leather vs. plate was a little dubious, but it was just for the sake of an example, not to make it a matter of contention or whatever.
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PermanentInk

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #9546 on: December 30, 2009, 12:14:56 pm »

Right; it's similarly exciting to consider, for example, new ways in which different weapons will be more appropriate to different opponent types and combat situations.  We already have this to an extent, e.g. with pikes working well against a single opponent like a giant but being lousy against crowds due to getting stuck in all the time.  But variations that have more to do with the physics of the weapon and the actual physiology of the opponent could be a lot richer than this.  I guess we'll see soon; hope Toady's feeling well before too long!
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jpwrunyan

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #9547 on: December 30, 2009, 12:16:10 pm »

I don't buy it.  According to the principals of realism it seems to me that plate should still be better or at least no worse at blocking damage from bunt weapons compared to leather armor- people wore padding under it after all.

I think the way it is now is the plate and leather are actually separate (since leather is not used in forging plate armor).  So if a dwarf equips the plate and no leather, he's got no leather underneath.  Just his regular clothes.  So to truly get dwarves to wear plate armor realistically, you should make a suit of leather armor to put underneath.  But even then, I think the leather padding used in historical plate mail is not the same as the hardened leather light armor.

It would be interesting to know if toady plans to diversify leather armor types according to whether they are soft, hard, studded, or even if you can have hide armor.  And then whether equipping these mitigates chafing (or whether chafing will play a part in armor).

Totally different question, but does anyone know if there is an actual word to describe armor use?  Like the skill for properly maintaining and donning armor?  I guess there isn't one...

(maybe I misunderstood your comment... but, uh, oh well, what I intended to say is that, right now dwarves seem to don armor without leather so there is nothing to mitigate blunt trauma)
« Last Edit: December 30, 2009, 12:19:09 pm by jpwrunyan »
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NewoTigra

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #9548 on: December 30, 2009, 12:46:53 pm »

Quote
Will the effectiveness of weapons and armor (damage/defense) still be based on the old material values?  I.e. steel 1.3x, iron 1.0x, bronze 0.75x, copper 0.66x and everything else 0.5x.

Nope, and honestly this is one of the things I'm personally most excited for. Weapons and armor now have numbers based on actual real world properties of the material they're made out of. Because its based on multiple properties (elasticity, yield, fracture, edge and density) this moves us away from a tier system of metals (where one is greater than the other) to a more give-and-take system.

I knew most of this already, but to have it stated with all the different variables is nice (I thought it only did density and edge).
*happydance*
Modding next version (once I get it figured out) will be so much fun...

right now dwarves seem to don armor without leather so there is nothing to mitigate blunt trauma.

This is probably still the case, but you could order them to wear leather armor underneath plate using the new uniform interfaces. If you wanted to you could probably mod in a new leather armor (called padding or whatever) and cause it to be thicker to better absorb blunt trauma, I don't know if you could feasibly make it weaker if worn on it's own but, eh, more realistic seeming maybe.

Totally different question, but does anyone know if there is an actual word to describe armor use?  Like the skill for properly maintaining and donning armor?  I guess there isn't one...

Annoyingly enough, no there doesn't seem to be. Most games don't actually take maintenance of armour and weapons into account, and it is just referred to as 'maintenance' in reality. Most blacksmiths or armor / weaponsmiths tended to repair things as well as make them however, so could probably tie it in that people would take it to a (the?) local smith to have it repaired, rather than doing it themselves. I suppose those that actually used their own equipment could probably look after it by themselves to a small degree, maybe without any related skill, after all, it doesn't take a great deal of know-how to sharpen a sword, or oil a pair of gauntlets, does it?

This would probably remain true in regards to reality, all you need to sharpen a sword is a stone from the ground, unless it's an adamantine sword, in which case you would need to have an adamantine whetstone (essentially just a flat piece of rock or metal, wears away slowly over time).

Pretty easy to introduce, just have your blacksmith able to repair damaged armour and weapons, maybe using a small proportion of metal to do so, maybe up to 1/2 of the items material size, depending on how damaged it is. He could make whetstones from metal, or your mason could make stone ones, to sharpen a weapon you would need to use a whetstone of equal or greater hardness, and although they are not one-use items they would still wear away gradually. They don't need to be huge, so a blacksmith or mason could probably make 5-10 whetstones from one lot of bars or block of stone.

In any case, theres probably a topic somewhere that has already posted all of this stuff and ideas. As they say, "if you think something is a great brand-new idea, chances are someone else does too, or already has."
« Last Edit: December 30, 2009, 01:12:09 pm by NewoTigra »
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Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #9549 on: December 30, 2009, 01:00:40 pm »

I knew most of this already, but to have it stated with all the different variables is nice (I thought it only did density and edge).
*happydance*
Modding next version (once I get it figured out) will be so much fun...

Oh you ain't seen nothin yet.  There are about 20 mechanical properties, although ~9 of them are mostly or completely unused right now (the torsion, tensile and bending ones).
« Last Edit: December 30, 2009, 01:04:43 pm by Footkerchief »
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NewoTigra

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #9550 on: December 30, 2009, 01:15:23 pm »

I knew most of this already, but to have it stated with all the different variables is nice (I thought it only did density and edge).
*happydance*
Modding next version (once I get it figured out) will be so much fun...

Oh you ain't seen nothin yet.  There are about 20 mechanical properties, although ~9 of them are mostly or completely unused right now (the torsion, tensile and bending ones).

*high-pitched squeal of utter Joy*

So much for a weapons / armour nut to play with... Toady has the Flu you say... why, with a little genetic meddling we could make him immune to all diseases! Fetch me my meddling gear!

All Joking aside, get well soon.
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Sean Mirrsen

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #9551 on: December 30, 2009, 01:22:54 pm »

~12, actually. Or wait, molar mass and absorption too, that makes 14.

That leaves us with 8 entirely new physical properties, which are more or less straightforward.

Liquid density will hardly be used ever (I guess a covering of molten lead will weigh you down... it'll be the least of your problems then though).
Max edge determines how sharp you can make the material.
Impact yield is how much force you'll need to exert before the material will be in any way affected. Impact fracture is how much force will be required to break the material. Impact elasticity is, presumably, how much force can be further resisted past the yield point without permanently damaging the material.
Shear yield/fracture/elasticity is the same for "sideways" force, such as when you're chopping through armor. (presumably, again)

I'm rather interested in future applications of the other parameters. Compressive, tensile, and torsion strengths will probably find use in stress and cave-in calculations of constructions. Bending yield..is that even a valid physical property? Absorption will likely affect cloth versus water, for example. Molar mass... does it have a use except in chemistry? If the day will come when we'll be able to make chemical interactions in DF...  imagine filling a pit trap with proper proportions of sulphur, saltpeter, and charcoal.
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Name Lips

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #9552 on: December 30, 2009, 01:27:18 pm »

If he ever puts in chemical properties, I think he should put in everything working properly except gunpowder, just to annoy its proponents. Quicklime? Sure. Gunpowder? Nay.
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Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #9553 on: December 30, 2009, 01:36:24 pm »

~12, actually. Or wait, molar mass and absorption too, that makes 14.

Torsion, tensile, bending and... what else?  I guess it's possible that the compressive values aren't used either.

Oops, we're both wrong.  They ARE used, at least in wrestling:

There are some details in the material template preview.

As a note, some of those "unused" ones have uses now -- all of the things like compressive/tensile/bending/torsion get used during wrestling, but that's about it I think.  They are around if we need them now though (not that it was easy to find any numbers, so most of the numbers are copies of ones I found for other materials or types of force...)

I wonder how exactly they work in wrestling.  The current joint locks could make use of bending and twisting.  Tensile would be good once the wrestling system gets revamped and you can grab smaller creatures and rip them apart (grasp size comes up here -- you shouldn't be able to get a good grip on body parts much bigger or smaller than your hand).  Compressive would be good for crushing smaller creatures in your hands.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2009, 01:44:20 pm by Footkerchief »
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SirPenguin

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #9554 on: December 30, 2009, 01:39:42 pm »

I don't buy it.  According to the principals of realism it seems to me that plate should still be better or at least no worse at blocking damage from bunt weapons compared to leather armor- people wore padding under it after all.

I know not the actual real life properties; my example was one that Toady responded to awhile back. It's a tad vague, I guess, depending on what he's saying "Yeah, that's right" to:

Quote from: Org
So bludgeoning weapons denies most of the armor bonus from breastplate and mail? I know it does IRL. Does this mean leather does better against it, or is it still as bad?

Yeah, that's right.  There's an overall issue remaining that I was going to handle when I do padding or don't do padding, which is the overall notion of thickness.  I think it fudges that in the calcs right now, but the item needs an extra raw number most likely.


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