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[Neonivek]

Well yeah, the MEGABEAST tag.

Not quite what I meant.

I mean if the Megabeast and such tags end up extrapolated or there are ways to earn such tags in game. It would require something a bit more then being the same size as the other megabeasts.

[Footkerchief]

Of course, but what about during world gen? Will it regard age based size? :D

I think my sense of humor is getting really bad.

Haha, I saw that first sentence and was ready to go off on you.  I still can't see anything unambiguous about this answer, unless the terminology confused people or something.

The answer is yes, the game will compute the right body size (respecting caste, age, body size nodes, etc.) for your creature in both worldgen and gameplay, and that size will have an impact on combat calculations.  Unless there's a bug, of course, but that disclaimer should hardly need to be stated.

I think I have even asked them before, but since the forum search function can only return one result within a thread, between this and the old New Future of the Fortress it would take days to even look.

You can get more than one result from a thread if you open the thread and then use the search bar in the top right.  It sucks ass in its own special ways though.  You can't restrict by the poster's name, it returns entire posts instead of relevant excerpts (have fun scrolling), and it returns 30 results max.

Will the fishing mechanic still only allow dwarves to catch "vermin" type fish, or will they now be able to catch fish with distinct body plans?

I don't think Toady's mentioned it, so I'm 99.99% sure that it hasn't changed at all.  It would have been a significant task, since it wouldn't make sense without wrestling-type calculations to determine whether the fisherdwarf can muscle that giant squid (or great white shark or whatever) out of the water.  Also there'd have to be new AI for creature fish getting attracted to a lure, and so on (since they can't pop out of nowhere, unlike vermin).  For reference, here are the fishing-related dev items:

# Req326, HARDER FISHING, (Future): Fishing is a little too easy, maybe.
# Req482, FISH CLEANING IMPROVEMENTS, (Future): You should be able to remove relevant portions (shell/bones) of fish during cleaning.
# Bloat47, POND FISHING, (Future): Cats should fish things out of your ponds.
# Bloat356, IMPROVED FISHING, (Future): Dwarves should be able to fish for certain unit-sized creatures. Fish should be visible all over the place and dwarves should possibly have to catch them, depending on how the AI works out.

On a subtler note, the next version does allow vermin to have distinct body plans, as you can see in the raws for the revamped fluffy wambler.  They'll generally go unused, but will come in handy if worldgen drops a Fluffy Wambler Titan on you.

If the fortress-playable race includes castes which are wildly different sizes, will the player still be able to make appropriately sized clothing for all of them?  Or is clothing universalized or some other temporary solution?

On this, I have no idea.  The relevant List item was "Issue with stout creatures vs. items" under the "Unfinished business" section, which has been checked off.  I don't think we heard what the solution was.

[alfie275]

Would caste sets, suggested in -> this <- thread, be a trivial or a hard thing to put in?
Just wondering.

[Shoku]

Of course, but what about during world gen? Will it regard age based size? :D

I think my sense of humor is getting really bad.

Haha, I saw that first sentence and was ready to go off on you.  I still can't see anything unambiguous about this answer, unless the terminology confused people or something.

I'm getting really loopy being in my room all the time unless I'm visiting relatives or such.

If the fortress-playable race includes castes which are wildly different sizes, will the player still be able to make appropriately sized clothing for all of them?  Or is clothing universalized or some other temporary solution?

On this, I have no idea.  The relevant List item was "Issue with stout creatures vs. items" under the "Unfinished business" section, which has been checked off.  I don't think we heard what the solution was.

I though I heard some mention of there being moderate leeway in sizes that could wear a particular garment but that could have just as well been one of our conversations.

[Neonivek]

Though Toady doesn't really have to answer the "Widely different sized Caste" issue until Version 2

[Armok]

I just realized something: if [MEGABEAST] was a caste tag, one could recreate that chinese(?) myth whith dragons coming rarely from snakes or whatever it was?

[Stormrage]

I just realized something: if [MEGABEAST] was a caste tag, one could recreate that chinese(?) myth whith dragons coming rarely from snakes or whatever it was?

I believe you can recreate it without the tag anyway. But can odds be set? such as 98% sea serpent 2% Dragon chance and only the sea serpents can breed so something like the dragon mating with a sea serpent won't happen...

it could be really awesome... reminds me of the farseer trilogy liveship traders trilogy ahhh childhood filled with rape and plunder

[Khym Chanur]

First question: will it be possible to derive/subclass one material template (and other templates) from another template?  Lets say that I wanted to make a class of trees whose wood could melt, could I do:

Code: [Select]

[MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:MELTING_WOOD_TEMPLATE]
    [USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:WOOD_TEMPLATE]
    [STATE_NAME:LIQUID:molten wood]
    [STATE_ADJ:LIQUID:molten wood]
    [MELTING_POINT:...]

to get all of the default WOOD_TEMPLATE settings without having to copy them?

Second question: would it be possible to, say, make unicorn spleens a brewable item?  If it is possible, could it be done entirely within the unicorn definition, or would it require using a special UNICORN_SPLEEN material and/or tissue template?

[Footkerchief]

I believe you can recreate it without the tag anyway. But can odds be set? such as 98% sea serpent 2% Dragon chance and only the sea serpents can breed so something like the dragon mating with a sea serpent won't happen...

Yes, you can do that.  You'd have to make the dragons genderless though.

First question: will it be possible to derive/subclass one material template (and other templates) from another template?

Don't think so, but it'd definitely be nice.

Second question: would it be possible to, say, make unicorn spleens a brewable item?  If it is possible, could it be done entirely within the unicorn definition, or would it require using a special UNICORN_SPLEEN material and/or tissue template?

Even if tissues/materials are derived from templates, you can still customize them "on the fly" inside the creature definition, as you can see in the new fluffy wambler's tissues/materials (the indented parts are customizing the tissue/material):

Code: [Select]

[USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:FLUFF:HAIR_TEMPLATE]
    [STATE_NAME:ALL_SOLID:fluff]
    [STATE_ADJ:ALL_SOLID:fluff]
[USE_TISSUE_TEMPLATE:FLUFF:HAIR_TEMPLATE]
    [TISSUE_NAME:fluff:NP]
    [RELATIVE_THICKNESS:3]
    [INSULATION:200]
[USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:SKIN:SKIN_TEMPLATE]
[USE_TISSUE_TEMPLATE:SKIN:SKIN_TEMPLATE]
[USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:PUDGE:FAT_TEMPLATE]
    [STATE_NAME:ALL_SOLID:pudge]
    [STATE_ADJ:ALL_SOLID:pudge]
    [STATE_COLOR:ALL:PURPLE]
[USE_TISSUE_TEMPLATE:PUDGE:FAT_TEMPLATE]
    [TISSUE_NAME:pudge:NP]
    [MUSCULAR]
    [FUNCTIONAL]
    [STRUCTURAL]
[USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:EYE:EYE_TEMPLATE]
[USE_TISSUE_TEMPLATE:EYE:EYE_TEMPLATE]

You can also create new tissues/materials from scratch inside the creature def if you don't want to use templates.

However, brewable unicorn spleen is still tricky.  You can give it the relevant plant material tags, but the item type will still be a corpse piece or meat stack, not a plant item.  The brewing job will most likely be looking for a plant item.  However, it would be straightforward to give the vanilla kitchen an extra reaction for "Prepare brewable body parts for brewing," which will correct the item type ("brewable" meaning that the material is tagged with REACTION_CLASS:MEAT_BREWABLE or whatever).  Or you could mod in a custom still that isn't as picky about item type.  So yeah, it can be done with a little indirection.

[CobaltKobold]

Partially beaten by G-Flex, but my answers touch on some different points so I'll post them anyway.

Is inter-caste breeding possible/likely/rare/inevitable/preventable?

All breeding is inter-caste, since males and females are implemented as castes now.  Breeding occurs between any caste with a MALE tag and any caste with a FEMALE tag.  You can't give a caste both the MALE and FEMALE tag (the game ignores it if you try).

...so no giant snails yet? :-| Another thing that'll need to go out with Universal Monogamy. Trees will also require this when the line stops being fixed 'twixt plant and animal

Well yeah, the MEGABEAST tag.

Not quite what I meant.

I mean if the Megabeast and such tags end up extrapolated or there are ways to earn such tags in game. It would require something a bit more then being the same size as the other megabeasts.

I think what Neonivek is pointing out is, that [MEGABEAST] behaviour should probably go the way of [POWER] (as goblin-domination behavior) being generated rather than enforced by raw.

If a pack of wolves manages to become fearsome and dominate an area, why shouldn't it rule a civilisation*?

*_{Assume for the sake of argument that [CAN_LEARN] and lack thereof has been obsoleted, and that stat-caps are absent}

PPE: Brewable...meat...um. 

[Footkerchief]

I think what Neonivek is pointing out is, that [MEGABEAST] behaviour should probably go the way of [POWER] (as goblin-domination behavior) being generated rather than enforced by raw.

Yeah, I see that now.  I thought he was talking about how the game is rather than how it should be.  The part about "Megabeasts arn't simply large creatures" threw me off.

[Neonivek]

Well closer, it was more that "If the megabeast behavior went the way of [POWER]"

[Khym Chanur]

You can also create new tissues/materials from scratch inside the creature def if you don't want to use templates.

[snip]

However, brewable unicorn spleen is still tricky.  You can give it the relevant plant material tags, but the item type will still be a corpse piece or meat stack, not a plant item.

What I was wondering about (but forgot to ask) was if I did something like:

Code: [Select]

    [USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:SPLEEN:SPLEEN_TEMPLATE]
    [USE_TISSUE_TEMPLATE:SPLEEN:SPLEEN_TEMPLATE]
    [USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:DRINK:PLANT_ALCOHOL_TEMPLATE]
    [DRINK:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:DRINK]
    [STATE_NAME_ADJ:ALL_SOLID:frozen unicorn spleen wine]

Would the drink tags apply only to the spleen, or would it apply to the whole unicorn?

The brewing job will most likely be looking for a plant item.  However, it would be straightforward to give the vanilla kitchen an extra reaction for "Prepare brewable body parts for brewing," which will correct the item type ("brewable" meaning that the material is tagged with REACTION_CLASS:MEAT_BREWABLE or whatever).  Or you could mod in a custom still that isn't as picky about item type.  So yeah, it can be done with a little indirection.

It also occurred to me that, with a custom still and reactions, I could do something like:

Code: [Select]

[PLANT:FAKE_UNICORN_SPLEEN]
    [USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:STRUCTURAL:STRUCTURAL_PLANT_TEMPLATE]
    [BASIC_MAT:LOCAL_PLANT_MAT:STRUCTURAL]

    Make sure the plant is never generated in-game.
    [GENPOWER:0][FREQUENCY:0][CLUSTERSIZE:0]

    Doesn't have any season to grow in, or any seeds to plant.

    [USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:DRINK:PLANT_ALCOHOL_TEMPLATE]
    [DRINK:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:DRINK]

    It isn't really being generated from a plant.
    [IMPLIES_ANIMAL_KILL]

    [STATE_NAME_ADJ:ALL_SOLID:frozen unicorn spleen wine]
    ...

Since the fake plant would never be generated in game, the only way to get the unicorn spleen wine would be through the custom still's reaction.

[madjoe5]

More rare: no, biomes etc. can't be set at the caste level.

Are you sure there isn't a way to make castes percentage based?

Generally, if there are 2 castes within a creature, there is a 50-50 chance either way. Is there a way to alter that so that it can be set to become more like 99% one way and 1% the other?

[Footkerchief]

Are you sure there isn't a way to make castes percentage based?

Generally, if there are 2 castes within a creature, there is a 50-50 chance either way. Is there a way to alter that so that it can be set to become more like 99% one way and 1% the other?

Oh, yes, you can do that.  I kind of blanked on what "rarity" could mean.

What I was wondering about (but forgot to ask) was if I did something like:

[snip]

Would the drink tags apply only to the spleen, or would it apply to the whole unicorn?

[DRINK:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:DRINK] doesn't mean anything for a creature -- DRINK is a plant tag that says "Use material X for the hardcoded brewing job."  Don't get the hardcoded DRINK tag mixed up with the non-hardcoded DRINK material token.

Also, if you had been doing that for a plant instead of a creature, it probably still wouldn't work to apply material properties after a DRINK tag.  I think the game would just ignore it rather than try to apply it to all its materials or whatever.  What'd you want is this:

Code: [Select]

[USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:DRINK:PLANT_ALCOHOL_TEMPLATE]
    [STATE_NAME_ADJ:ALL_SOLID:frozen unicorn spleen wine] <-- note that it's done immediately after the material declaration
[DRINK:LOCAL_PLANT_MAT:DRINK]


It also occurred to me that, with a custom still and reactions, I could do something like:

[snip]

Since the fake plant would never be generated in game, the only way to get the unicorn spleen wine would be through the custom still's reaction.

Yup.  This might be necessary for the kitchen reaction I described, depending on whether the game forces plant items to be made of a valid plant material (I think it does in the current version, but I doubt it will in the next version, thankfully).