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[Neonivek]

Yeah.  If somebody actually got a bachelors in melee weapon design, I can see the point of people who claim that we can do what the metalsmiths used to do.

The problem I have with many people who claim to be highly knowledgable in medieval crafts (specifically weapon and armor) is that there seems to be some sort of hidden "Who is the best" camp between many of them.

Though that is likely because the people trying to prove, for example, vikings are the best are more vocal then those who attempt to do objective studies.

Then again, it could be said that people value subjective historical knowledge much more then objective. Afterall, if it is cooler, more sanitary, and fits into our political mindset then why not? Who wants to learn how the Vikings tried to cultivate land at one point when you could learn how they beat people up throughout the ages.

[zchris13]

One question, bro.  Why did you quote me?

[Neonivek]

One question, bro.  Why did you quote me?

It seems to flow perfectly from what you said... though I tend to draw things in a non-linear fashion.

[zchris13]

The too points only barely lie in the same plane, they are not linearly connected.

[Neonivek]

What do you mean?

bachelors in melee weapon design

Then going into what I said next

people who claim to be highly knowledgable in medieval crafts (specifically weapon and armor)

Perfect flow

[SirPenguin]

I swear we can't got 2 days without someone getting their ego all bruised up and having to prove their manhood

[Saber Cherry]

High quality plate and chain weighed about 20 - 25kg (...) A fully armored knight in good plate and chain could run down an unarmoured man, jump onto his horse and swim across a river, swimming was difficult certainly, but entirely possible, as knights tended to be extremely fit due to training.

I call BS on that.  Animals that can swim, such as humans, have a density of close to 1.  Your proposed armored knight has a density of about 1.3, and would be fighting a river current with inferior paddle-surfaces of feet and hands (due to boots and gauntlets or gloves), and restricted joint mobility.

It may state on wikipedia that modern reenactments suggest knights could swim "in armor", but I believe that to be false or misleading.  There is obviously some level of armor with which a human can swim across a river, but I don't believe that 25 kg of full-body armor is within that level.

P.S.  For the record, I don't claim to be highly knowledgeable about this

[zchris13]

Leave it to the experts.

In other news, the animal men camps are going to be flipping amazing and I can't wait to be slaughtered a couple thousand times.

[Neonivek]

Leave it to the experts.

In other news, the animal men camps are going to be flipping amazing and I can't wait to be slaughtered a couple thousand times.

I can't imagine them being too interesting without tents, long cabins, nests, and stuff like that. Oooh and Kenels for the Boogymen they use to kill people!

Unless there is!

[dragnar]

Learning swordplay nowadays isn't for killing, it's for self-fulfillment, the same as collecting old weapons. Modern studies of all sorts of swordsplay would (and do in fencing) create swordsmen who are also much better than their ancient counterparts, but that's not our main method of killing people anymore.

Really? I always assumed fencing was more for show than actual combat, seems like those flimsy swords would get knocked aside like they were nothing by a normal sword.

The too points only barely lie in the same plane, they are not linearly connected.

Technically any two points are in the same plane, and linearly connected...[/lame math joke]

[EvilTwin]

[/armor talk], 'kay? 

[G-Flex]

Technically any two points are in the same plane...[/lame math joke]

AND are linearly connected! Can't forget that.

[zchris13]

But the plane has already been defined by multiple points, and his post was NOT in that plane. Close. But no.

Yes.  [/metal talk] Please.

[Shoku]

I am not saying that a Special Mood causing poison isn't a terrible thing especially on mass.

I am just saying that throwing it around like it is candy makes it a lot less special. It is divine inspiration not a cold no matter how rare that cold is. (Id think you would have to make a deal with powerful demons to force a special mood)

We could just cut to the point they clearly meant- you could have an insanity type poison that made them very eager to make crafts out of their friends but taking away the whole artifact level of it. Thinking about how these poisons don't just flat out have their effect but rather go up and then fade at the start you could have them ripping off each other's ears and getting blood everywhere but with as the condition worsened they'd start fighting each other to try and amputate limbs and then finally start deciding that they wanted eyeballs and internal organs- all to make a pile of low quality socks.

Or maybe even decent quality socks but with decoration types that made them worthless to every civ except maybe some little freaks like kobolds.

Sort of like how only the strongest of warriors can use some of those big ass swords like claymores or something. I know its not a great analogy since just about any dwarf can get superdwarvenly strong given enough time.

Still, at what height (or size variation) does a dwarf stop bieng a dwarf and becomes a human? That will definetly be one for the philosophers to chew on. The same question can go in reverse as well.

Heh, I'm tempted to green that question out since now that we have absolute size numbers rather than more abstract numbers for size.

Even if they're tall they'll still have unusual limb proportions and if they don't they'd still have dwarven skin tones and eye colors instead of human ones.

Going by bland old height though I'd say once you hit five feet it's awfully hard to exclude them.

Really? I always assumed fencing was more for show than actual combat, seems like those flimsy swords would get knocked aside like they were nothing by a normal sword.

Against an unarmored opponent it would be simple to stab them real good with one as you can move them so much faster than the comparably blunt force swings of a thick sword but in more realistic situations ya, it wouldn't be good on a battlefield.

I think the phrasing mean that current fencing peoples outperform the more historic fencing peoples, not that modern rapiers would wreck a claymore.

[Reese]

Really? I always assumed fencing was more for show than actual combat, seems like those flimsy swords would get knocked aside like they were nothing by a normal sword.

actually... Rapiers were developed as civilian weapons for dueling and personal defense, not for mass combat, and evolved into the lighter fencing foils used today because a man using a light sword of that nature would most likely end up fighting with other men wielding a similar weapon, and with lighter weapons like that, meant for stabbing, lightness and speed were the most important because you only needed to get past your opponents similarly weighted blade, once, to strike his unarmored torso... and likewise your opponent to you.

Basically, the medieval and Renaissance people knew how powerful a good crit from a piercing weapon was, and they designed a weapon which could attack quickly and have more chances to cause organ damage.

that actually would be interesting; have dueling weapons you can make for your dwarfs to settle grudges, make dueling a crime like destroying buildings while tantruming, but only if witnessed... good thought if you kill the guy you have, bad thought if you don't or lose depending on personality and the severity of the grudge, and the duel would be to first blood or to the death depending, again, on the grudge and the personality of the *seconds* if you have that... then your control is how lethal the available dueling weapons are... those weapons could actually be carried by civilians for self defense, like say your plant gatherer is caught outside by an ambusher and cornered...