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[Innominate]

I think magic would be awesome, but only if it permeated everything in a subtle way. Rather than the stereotypical fantasy wizard "I was not concentrating hard enough to win that battle.", magic would have to be like any other tool. If people can control fire with their minds they're not just going to use it for fighting, but cauterising, smelting, cooking and everything else too. Similarly, magic would have to be significantly weaker than fantasy settings give them in the typical escalation of arms situation. It's a delicate balance between it being useless and overpowering, and I think the first step in the right direction is the artifact arc, which fortunately appears to be the one Toady wishes to take.

[zchris13]

I want it to be feasible to chop off my wizards heads when they piss me off.  THat will not be practical in a typical fantasy universe setting.

[KillerClowns]

Magic changing with every new world genned?  *Drools.*  That way, I don't spoiler-ize myself, or get spoiler-ized, but can delve into the strange mechanics of my world's arcane mysteries, converting entire fortresses into fiendish laboratories and dedicating adventurers towards charging madly into the edges of reality itself.

I think magic saturation should be a world-gen option, so you can choose between low fantasy, high fantasy, et cetera, but I for one would eagerly crank that option up to insane levels.  Sure, I may get a world in which power mad magi enslave entire populations, unspeakable beasts of horrifying power roam free and unfettered, and the fabric of reality itself is so frail a single magical experiment gone wrong could shatter the borders separating Hell and Earth... but hey, that sounds fun to me.

[dragnar]

I want it to be feasible to chop off my wizards heads when they piss me off.  THat will not be practical in a typical fantasy universe setting.

Why not? The simplest way to kill a wizard in almost any setting is simple physical force, the only problem is getting close enough to lop off his head.

I would prefer that magic be a form of science, different in every world. Just because you have wizards that can manipulate the fabric of reality doesn't mean there can't be a mathematical explanation for how they do it. Harry Potter style magic, or only semi-controllable magic just annoys me. If magic is impossible to understand then all it takes to become a wizard is memorizing words that work just because, there should be research involved, to find out how magical energies work.

[Teach]

Aye I think that's what Toady plans to do for magic.  At least for Dwarves it's gonna be artifact based ie You've just created such a badass cabinet that it broke/transcended reality or was blessed by the gods or what have you.

[Shoku]

will river flooding ever come back? e.g cave river and magma river flooding in the 2D version

You'd have to redo the water pathing quite a bit to make that happen much- or produce a freaking ton of water.

Thing is when water falls on a 7/7 tile it looks for the closest open spot to teleport to. You'd have to dam up the end of the river and even still if it ever dropped a level you couldn't get it to ever flood upstream. On the other hand if it is full up to the same level you couldn't ever get it to flood downstream because you'd just have normal water wandering right where it started.

There's no sense of "water can't flow through fast enough" in the way it works now.

I want it to be feasible to chop off my wizards heads when they piss me off.  THat will not be practical in a typical fantasy universe setting.

knockout gas then just binding their hands would do the trick for any magic user aside from those that just chant, those that shoot magic right out of their fingertips, and those that are more like psychic. Just about all of them from most settings.

I would prefer that magic be a form of science, different in every world. Just because you have wizards that can manipulate the fabric of reality doesn't mean there can't be a mathematical explanation for how they do it. Harry Potter style magic, or only semi-controllable magic just annoys me. If magic is impossible to understand then all it takes to become a wizard is memorizing words that work just because, there should be research involved, to find out how magical energies work.

I think I've got a system that gives a nice middle ground: have the goofy magic words be reference to prior persons, probably those that did something significant through sheer willpower. This would end up making them somewhat akin to engravings, though it's a bit difficult to get a believable explanation for something like a bolt of lightning spell from anything someone could do prior to said magic spell.

[dragnar]

I think I've got a system that gives a nice middle ground: have the goofy magic words be reference to prior persons, probably those that did something significant through sheer willpower. This would end up making them somewhat akin to engravings, though it's a bit difficult to get a believable explanation for something like a bolt of lightning spell from anything someone could do prior to said magic spell.

I read about an interesting explanation for magic spells once: They do nothing at all, and are merely a mnemonic that allows the spell caster to focus their mind completely on willing the universe to change. The training most mages went through was nothing but learning how to focus and to associate phrases with common spells.

[Nivim]

 Hm, was that one of Lackey's books? (Elemental masters, Heralds of Valdemar.)

[KillerClowns]

I want it to be feasible to chop off my wizards heads when they piss me off.  THat will not be practical in a typical fantasy universe setting.

Potential weaknesses of Dwarf Fortress mages in the far future:
Artifacts.  (This cat-leather-with-microcline-spikes helmet I'm wearing doesn't just look stylish... it also nullifies magic!)
Magic being somewhat unreliable.  (Maybe if you hadn't decided to have an extra drink of Sunshine, that fireball wouldn't have blown up in your face!)
Similarly unreliable enchanted servants.  (Y'know... instead of fighting that wizard, I think I'll erase the mark he's using to control those !!clowns!! and then just... run for my life.)
Dwarvern ingenuity.  (No adventurer has ever returned alive from the subterranean lair of the Dread Wizard Nedor... which is why we're just gonna flood the place with magma and be done with it.)
Running out of magical power, in whatever form it takes.  (Congratulations, you are a scrawny old man with a fairly heavy stick.  There is an army at your door.  Now what?)
Godly wrath.  (I tire of thee, mortal.  For your petulant insults to my glory, I shall rend the very mountains from underneath your feet, and seal your soul into the heart of a mountain!)
Trickery of various sorts.  (Did it not occur to you as odd that the princess was so willing to accept your marriage proposal?  You should have known she studies poisons as a hobby... rather strange girl, really.)

[dragnar]

Or you could just sneak up on them and kill them however you see fit. Wizards are usually pretty much helpless if caught unprepared, they only become unstoppable with enough time to prepare.

*looks at DF wiki*

Wizards are Batman!

[Inyssius]

Could you guys please take the off-topic magic discussion somewhere else?

[CaptainNitpick]

Could you guys please take the off-topic magic discussion somewhere else?

I don't think stuff that's on the development list can actually be off-topic for Future of the Fortress. The discussion is probably premature, but that's not the same thing.

[CobaltKobold]

Animalman template.

[Toady Two]

Animalman template.

This.

At least the magic discussion was readable, as opposed to those ramblings.

Anyway Toady is working on underground fun stuff right now. I was always hoping for more random dangers that could harm my miners. Realistic ones like methane or poisonous gas pockets would be cool. And maybe he'll mix things up with new types of clowns.

[Neonivek]

Hm, was that one of Lackey's books? (Elemental masters, Heralds of Valdemar.)

A few Starwars books hint at this as well with the "Force Adepts" who are basically force sensative individuals on primative planets who treat the force like magic (because by all means it is). They use incantations and such and can do a few things the Jedi never were shown capable of doing.

As well the movements the Jedi do arn't requirements, they don't need to take out their hand to use force push so to speak, they just use physical memory to boost their concentration. If they were incapable of moving their arms they would likely be incapable of using the Force to do movements they learned to do with their hands. (GUESS!)

In Mage (WoD) the mages take penelties if they cannot move and say their spells (or they get bonuses for using them) but I don't know if it is because it is the power of such words or the boost of concentration.

In Ninja Turtles in order to use a spell to ascend to the spirit realm they needed to concentrate. Since meditation didn't work they instead shadowboxed and fought eachother and it worked.

So it isn't that rare for settings to basically say: Words of power, movements, and the like don't actually do anything but they boost the concentration and visualisation of those doing such to the point where their spells are possible or enhanced.

Which makes sense.