Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Neonivek]

Well then it looks like we will have to deal with supports soon.

Think there will be an auto-support option later on?

[smjjames]

I wonder how cave-ins will work with the new natural caverns.  I imagine a nightmare scenario where your dwarves break into the underground and the whole map collapses.

This was addressed:

I'll rephrase.

I seem to remember seeing vast caverns in the screenshots of the underground.  Assuming that there will be user-adjustable parameters to set the shapes/distributions of caverns, and that some form of cave-ins will be implemented at some point in the future for excavations supported on the edges--involving a rule similar to the seven-by-seven--how will caverns and cave-ins play together?

-Will whatever algorithms generate caverns take into account cave-in rules, thereby forcing regular pillars or smaller spaces (i.e., will expansive Lost-world style spaces not be an option for caverns?)

or

-Will the original 'natural' hollows not be tested for cave-ins at all, thereby allowing vast spaces?

or

-Something else?

Those screenshots are over half a year old, I think they are from March or something.

[G-Flex]

He's talking about when cave-ins are more realistic, though.

I highly doubt that the way caverns are built right now is designed to handle whatever future rules may govern that, so they'll probably have to change at that point.

[Shoku]

Having different soil types have different support conditions could allow for wide spaces while still having the mountain crush your dwarves readily in various cases but if it turned into having a special non-collapse layer above the caverns that would kind of spoil the discovery to a degree.

I'm trying to picture something like arch bridge supports running crisscross through the caverns but that would only be remotely believable if that was where animal men were living.

Swiss cheese "holes" in the open areas for columns would still keep things pretty open- about as closed as a loose density forest.

Or I guess there's the possibility of invisible supports in the middle of cavern "rooms" that were similar to the particular stones that make all that water in underground rivers. If they don't specifically have a dome shape visible through the z axis this would just imply it provided the room border was roundish.

[Silverionmox]

Oh Great Nocturnal Bugcatcher, I implore thee:
Are different organs and/or bones preserved as distinct items, or does it all just turn into generic <species> meat & bone? Does butchering change that? Could one include specific organs (eg. chicken livers, kobold eyes, eye of newt, etc.) in recipes in the workshops and/or the kitchen?

[Footkerchief]

Are different organs and/or bones preserved as distinct items, or does it all just turn into generic <species> meat & bone? Does butchering change that? Could one include specific organs (eg. chicken livers, kobold eyes, eye of newt, etc.) in recipes in the workshops and/or the kitchen?

We aren't likely to get answers more specific than those below until Toady gets to the "Handling butchery/rot/fish cleaning/eat leavings vs. body materials" item, from "Some other unfinished business" in the List -- that should be within a week or two, at the rate things are going.

How is crafting going to interact with all the specific new anatomy?

Will there be teeth/random body spike crafts? Specific organs as different cooking ingredients, or to get extracts from?

Some of this...  I haven't finished butchery yet, so it'll depend on how much it feels like there's just too many crap items being generated and what I have time for.  Ideally, it would at least keep things that have special functions.  You can make crafts out of whatever parts it makes as long as their materials have the proper flags.  It continues to virtually ignore sizes or sense that way.

Will the new creature update (as in: the more elaborate way creatures will be put together,) affect the way fat, bones, and meat are handled and produced by the butcher shop? Will it affect butchering at all?

Will there (if not by the next update, then ever) be a way to obtain (or even mod in) specific "food" type organs (like liver, kidneys, sweetbreads, etc.), specific cuts of meat, or other special substances (that white phosphorous "pouch" comes to mind), via the butcher shop?

Butchering will probably be affected, but it's currently one of the loose ends.  Ideally you'd be able to get all of the organs out of a critter, but the game needs to be handle both the volume of the objects created in that case and any "game-breaking" elements, like one animal giving you way too much food (right now it doesn't account for the size of an object to tell you how much it fed you for example).

[atomfullerene]

It shouldn't be difficult to gen caverns to fit with whatever cave in scheme is present.  Just don't let them grow wider than a certain amount, or run the cave in script on the map after it is worldgenned to allow cave ins to occur before anything else happens. 

By the way, here's how I would handle cave in rules.  Collapse any tile more than x spaces from a wall.  Say you have cave ins for any tile more than 2 tiles from a wall (it should be a larger number than this, this is for demonstration purposes).

Starting cave in vertical cross section looks like this, with X representing rock and H representing unstable rock about to fall (spoilered for length):

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Turn 1
XXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXHHHHHHXXX
X                  X
X                  X
X                  X
X                  X
XXXXXXXXXXXX

turn 2
XXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXHHXXXXX
XXX           XXX
X                  X
X                  X
X                  X
X    XXXXXX   X
XXXXXXXXXXXX

turn 3
XXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXX    XXXXX
XXX           XXX
X                  X
X                  X
X        XX      X
X    XXXXXX   X
XXXXXXXXXXXX

The advantage to this is that you get natural looking arched cavern tops.  The piles of rock left on the cavern floors could be annoying, or could be realistic.  I think they'd work better in taller caverns.  In 1 z-level high caverns it would result in weird /\ shaped formations.  Maybe you could randomly convert some of the stone to rock pieces, but that might be difficult to do and keep other collapses working properly (eg when you drop obsidian and really want it to stay rock wall).  Another advantage is that this lets cave ins occur underground but have no effect on the surface-something that wouldn't happen if you simply dropped the whole column above onto the floor.  And finally, it gives the player incentive to build arched bridges and vaults.

Finally, I support different cave in limits for stone, soil, and constructions

[Razzums]

Only 20 more things tell next release .

[G-Flex]

It shouldn't be difficult to gen caverns to fit with whatever cave in scheme is present.  Just don't let them grow wider than a certain amount, or run the cave in script on the map after it is worldgenned to allow cave ins to occur before anything else happens. 

The problem with the first idea is that it might have to take into account the various properties of every type of stone and soil that composes it.

The problem with the second idea is that you could wind up with really, really, really freakish caverns.

[atomfullerene]

I tend to see the second aspect as an advantage.  At least, if you've ever been in a real cavern you will often notice big piles of rock in the middle and the like.  Caves can be awkward to get around in, but this is an area where too lifelike is probably a bad idea.  Perhaps you could combine the two approaches...the first would take care of most potential cave in issues and the second would finish up the rest while only disturbing smallish portions of the caverns, and maybe generating a few sinkholes and rock piles.  Of course, if you really wanted to be accurate you'd simulate groundwater erosion and empty lava tunnels, but that's a bit much.

[Footkerchief]

e: nm

[gordy]

It may have been mentioned already, but will a dwarfs like and dislikes affect their ability to learn and/or teach with those items? IE: will a dwarf who likes swords be a better swordman and learn or teach swordsdwarfmanship better? Will a dwarf who likes dog meat be a better dog meat chef? Or will it only affect their moods from being around or owning that particular item?

[Akigagak]

[enter Footkercheif, stage right]

[Markham]

I don't remember there being any piles of rocks in the natural caves I've been in.  They're usually formed by erosion from underground water sources, aren't they?

[Lancensis]

It may have been mentioned already, but will a dwarfs like and dislikes affect their ability to learn and/or teach with those items? IE: will a dwarf who likes swords be a better swordman and learn or teach swordsdwarfmanship better? Will a dwarf who likes dog meat be a better dog meat chef? Or will it only affect their moods from being around or owning that particular item?

I believe they are more likely to form bonds with things that they have a preferance for. I suppose that may have some advantages for gameplay