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[Shoku]

I think what Razzums actually was asking for was for Toady to include a way to designate any creature (or maybe item/constructions too) as an 'enemy of the state' (e.g. targeted for attack/destruction), not an dissertation on why training in non-lethal.

My reading comprehension plummets before I'm about to fall asleep :b

Otherwise the most clean method his desired mode of execution would be:
Including an Arena-roomtype.
On which tiles sparring occurs, while attracting onlookers (suggest this also occurs at normal sparring) that gain a happy or unhappy thought depending on personality. an arena room could have a toggle for lethal/non-lethal combat.
Such a room will probably be on the drawingboard, but not likely for this release. Army arc most probably.

[I hope Toady1 reads the above suggestions if the designs are not on the board yet. ]

Well I remember having mention of being able to just flag otherwise friendly units to be attacked so you could set this up by just locking two dwarves into a room and then flagging the one or both. Onlookers getting happy thoughts as if attending a stadium event could be pulled off by just making it a modified version of party but the stadium set up implies a multi-level room so there is pathing separation between the combat and the onlookers so that would be a ways away if ever intended.

[Neonivek]

Toady's sleeping will get worse the colder it gets.

[sweitx]

What we really need are specially desginated 'Rogue' types that sneak in ahead of the main force and disarm traps and levers.

Perhaps it could be done in such a way as to ensure that there could be no graphic, only a tile, for this critter.

Why do that? Just do it in the same way thieves are done atm.

Toady is intending on implementing more thievery stuff anyway, like Gremlins being invisible and trying to sneak into your fort to pull random levers for laughs.

I imagine player starting to build a secure lever room with guards securing it.  In addition to multiple rooms with a crapton of lever that either do nothing, or trigger a floodgate to open, which fills a small chamber, which presses a pressure plate, which lock said room and then flood it, killing the gremlin.  To reset it simply involves getting a dwarf to pump the water out of said small chamber.

[Neonivek]

Sure all you need to do is build these highly time expencive gremlin killing rooms everytime whether or not the gremlins are there or not.

[Footkerchief]

Well I remember having mention of being able to just flag otherwise friendly units to be attacked so you could set this up by just locking two dwarves into a room and then flagging the one or both.

You can do that to some extent, but not to your own dwarves: "Kill orders can be given to your selection of squads and individual units either associated to the critters at the cursor (you can pick among them if there is more than one there), or the critters within a rectangle, or the critters you select from a list, or all of the critters associated to squads at the cursor. Testing hasn't been thorough, so this might change, but right now your dwarves will preferentially target those critters for whom they have kill orders, and they'll seek out their locations if they don't have a target.  Kill orders can be given regarding any creature not directly under your fort's control, though as to why on earth you'd want to kill the elven dignitaries, well, I just have no idea."

Toady's sleeping will get worse the colder it gets.

Can't speak for him but yeah, I'm having to crank my own sleeping schedule back so that I get enough sun to not feel like crap.

[smjjames]

Toady's sleeping will get worse the colder it gets.

It won't neccesarily be the cold but the amount of time that it stays light will get shorter.

@sweitx: Yea, I'm probably going to recruit the dwarves with the best possible spatial awareness (I assume this helps in detecting sneaking/ambushing critters among other stuff) early on, possibly the same for cave spelunking expeditions.

The next version is going to change how we all play.

Oh yea, I have a thought, what about the site finder? Half of the choices are going to be obsolete. So, how is the site finder going to work now that there are so many changes? Stuff like temperature, savagery, elevation, rainfall, and flux will certainly stay.

[Neonivek]

It is both the light and the cold.

Don't underestimate the cold's ability to keep you in bed.

Though it was more of an issue when I was younger when the morning chills could actually make me feel quite ill.

[Razzums]

You mentioned some thing about a "play combat" and "combat" option when sparring. My question is can you toggle this on and off in game or on and off in the raws? So for an example you can make a squad of 2 dwarves and have them fight all out in an arena or some thing? And if it's not in the game its self, can you add it please?

You'll be able to do stuff like that in the combat testing arena.  I doubt he would add such a goofy option to the game itself.

Well I think having the option for a fight to the death fight between heroes of the fort especially if your playing a barbaric race like goblins or what not will be pretty entertaining. Or if your putting your military though intense training and you want the weak to die and the strong to live. I mean, it might be a silly idea, but me and many others will probably use it to stir some action around the fort between sieges.

[Footkerchief]

Oh yea, I have a thought, what about the site finder? Half of the choices are going to be obsolete. So, how is the site finder going to work now that there are so many changes? Stuff like temperature, savagery, elevation, rainfall, and flux will certainly stay.[/color]

I expect the underground choices will just get removed with no replacements, since it sounds like you won't need the site finder to encounter the full range of underground stuff, or most of it anyway.

[smjjames]

Oh yea, I have a thought, what about the site finder? Half of the choices are going to be obsolete. So, how is the site finder going to work now that there are so many changes? Stuff like temperature, savagery, elevation, rainfall, and flux will certainly stay.[/color]

I expect the underground choices will just get removed with no replacements, since it sounds like you won't need the site finder to encounter the full range of underground stuff, or most of it anyway.

True since the best sites generally have some UG source of water and they are found ONLY in mountains at this time, coupled with the difficulty of finding flux/sedimentary rock near volcanic areas where you would find magma pipes and pools. Plus the fact that people prefer to have lots of z-levels to do stuff with, but the highest z-level+15 thing will be lifted in the next release, so you could easily have a 100 z-level tower in the middle of a flat plain, which isn't possible at this time unless you manage to find some extreme cliffs next to a good sized flat area.

I'm really asking out of curiosity since the site finder is going to have to be changed substantially.

@Razzums: Three words: THIS IS SPARTA!!!!!!!!!

Seriously though, who wouldn't want to stage a gladitorial fight with their own dwarves.

[Neonivek]

Well I don't know... You can adjust the occurance of the underground.

A finder for a sparsely populated underground would still be useful.

[smjjames]

Yea, but remember, the UG rivers and pools as we know them won't exist. The UG pools will certainly be around, just in a different form or something. Chasms and bottomless pits will be gone, although there is a hint of the bottomless tile existing in some form. So, the UG river/pool choices could be merged into UG water source or something, but the chasm types won't.

Even if you adjusted the occurance of the underground to make it rare, the finder will still have been changed since there are so many changes that would affect the finder and embark screen in various ways.

[Areyar]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I think what Razzums actually was asking for was for Toady to include a way to designate any creature (or maybe item/constructions too) as an 'enemy of the state' (e.g. targeted for attack/destruction), not an dissertation on why training in non-lethal.

My reading comprehension plummets before I'm about to fall asleep :b

Otherwise the most clean method his desired mode of execution would be:
Including an Arena-roomtype.
On which tiles sparring occurs, while attracting onlookers (suggest this also occurs at normal sparring) that gain a happy or unhappy thought depending on personality. an arena room could have a toggle for lethal/non-lethal combat.
Such a room will probably be on the drawingboard, but not likely for this release. Army arc most probably.

[I hope Toady1 reads the above suggestions if the designs are not on the board yet. ]

Well I remember having mention of being able to just flag otherwise friendly units to be attacked so you could set this up by just locking two dwarves into a room and then flagging the one or both.

Onlookers getting happy thoughts as if attending a stadium event could be pulled off by just making it a modified version of party but the stadium set up implies a multi-level room so there is pathing separation between the combat and the onlookers so that would be a ways away if ever intended.

Hmm. yeah that is mostly how I've built my arenas as well.
No elevation restrictions in cagefights though!
i.e.

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    #     # @
   @#  @  #
    # E   #@
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@ = dwarf
E = elf (opponent)
# = upright iron bars or wallgrates.


[Dohon]

Regarding some underground site feature (don't know if it's a spoiler or not):

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Didn't Toady say in Dwarf Talk 3 that the UG would have some form of magma? This would make up for not having magma on a map. Having magma outside of the UG (like embarking near a volcano) would only mean you have acces to the flowing stuff of fun sooner. Ofcourse, not having trees and magma in the beginning might cause your intial forrays into the UG a bit ... dangerous.

[Footkerchief]

Yeah, he did.  Here's the relevant part of the transcript:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Rainseeker:   And are there multiple layers of undergrounds?

Toady:   Right now it's set so that you've always got three; you've got a couple [of] regular layers and then you've got down at the bottom you can pretty much be assured to find some magma and stuff down there. You don't have to fish around for the perfect magma map in general, or always start out next to a volcano. The benefit of starting out next to a volcano would be immediate access to magma, instead of magma that you have to ward off three layers worth of underground creatures to set up a single workshop.

Rainseeker:   That's awesome, though.

Toady:   Yeah there should be cool stuff down there, and even more of course as you get down at the very bottom.

Rainseeker:   I wouldn't mind - I'm kind of a conservative player myself - but I wouldn't mind dealing with first levels of critters attacking me if it progressed like the top being easier then the middle being a little harder and the bottom being the hardest.

Toady:   Yeah there's going to be some progression, which is a concept we lost almost entirely in the move from 2 to 3D. It'll be coming back, a notion of progression. It shouldn't be entirely artificial because there are some in-universe reasons for going down to [the] bad, which people are more or less aware of right? [That] there's bad things down there? And that that has a corrupting influence on your animal peoples and so on. So you'll find worse things down ... So you can kind of control your level of threat; it's not going to quite as stark as it was in 2D where you knew that you had; 'this vertical strip, I can dig out my fortress; this vertical strip has the river; this vertical strip, I can dig out my fortress; this vertical strip has the chasm; this vertical strip, I can dig out my fortress; this vertical strip has the lava' and so on. It's not quite that straightforward but there is a feeling of ... you'll kind of get a feel for the places where you can dig out your fortress I think. You'll have a notion of that; it'll occasionally be interrupted but mostly okay. Which is probably how it should be, you should kind of be able to spread out how you want, but occasionally have little hiccups in your plan. The overall variability of the features right now is basically 'How mushroom jungle-y is it? How wet is it?' and I'm going to be throwing in some more features like stalactite-y [and] stalagmite-y curtain-y type things down there to make the caves seem a little more cave like. Overall I think the proponents of the underground diversity thread where they went crazy with all kinds of different things that you might expect in a fantasy underground ... overall it's not going to be a very heavy coverage of that, there's just not enough time to do that yet but we're going to be slowly adding more and more things over time; it's not like this is the end of the story by any means.