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[warwizard]

I just checked the list, ONLY 25 ITEMS LEFT TO GREEN OUT!!  It's looking like we might have the new version out by Janurary some time. Keep the eyes on the prize. :-)

[Shoku]

I can't think of one game that wouldn't be better with dinosaurs.  Even DF.

What about football? Assuming you're one of the players

Riding them would make it much easier to see what roles players were specialized for. For running the ball you'd want the fastest dino but if something huge and heavy did catch up to it- well, you'd probably need pretty huge stables to get through a season without running out of them.

Well, I actually meant The Other Football Which Was Called Football First, but I suppose it's probably more entertaining to use dinosaurs in The Football In Which Feet Are Rarely Involved. I'm totally sure on the rules, of that. Would you be allowed to score a field goal from atop a Brachiosaur's head?

Now I'm stuck picturing an Ankylosaur swatting the ball away from the goal.

I am not being criticle of the movie I am mostly saying that the differences between JP VR and RL VR are large enough that to say they are the same creature either intentionally or unintentionally is a bit of a stretch.

Until you grow a Utahraptor and show that it will learn how to open doors and chase children through kitchens and things it's obviously not the JP raptor.

[Rhenaya]

I just checked the list, ONLY 25 ITEMS LEFT TO GREEN OUT!!  It's looking like we might have the new version out by Janurary some time. Keep the eyes on the prize. :-)

i hope for a dwarfy xmas :/

[Lancensis]

Heh, Good Old Goring weapons.

I suspect Whips will be dramatically different once we hit the combat arc.

Yeah, gore damage is weird.  I was playing Adventure Mode recently and noticing how it's basically the Veg-O-Matic of damage types.

[/quote]

You mean it just shreds things, or that it's incredible value and stocks are limited? It has always seemed a bit wierd to me, especially when you give a creature a high power gore attack. I think raw Gore damage is overall "better" than slash or bludgeon or whatnot, and it's easy to forget that whips are only balanced because of their very low attack.
I upped the elves' bite attack lately (damn cannibals!), and was amused when they'd be biting rats, and tearing them to shreds. Hell, I just put my sword away and just started biting, in adventure mode.

[Toady One]

On the note of liasons, will we have Elven civ liasons? I'm not talking about your dwarven civ having an elf or goblin liason (I've never seen a dwarf civ with a human liason, maybe because their lives are short), I'm talking about the Elves having their own liason. This may actually be possible now with modding. I had heard of people mentioning the elves having liasons but they die off in worldgen and aren't replaced. I would make this question green, but it may get answered by the modders as I'm not sure.

Do you mean a diplomat of any kind?  They send somebody over in the currently released version to make tree cutting agreements if you get up to a baron, I think.

Couldn't you implement a forcibly "doomed" civ just by setting one or more powers to have a personal hatred against them? Once there are Gods meddling with the world, just setting a couple of them to try to bring down a civ should do the trick over time, right? It seems to fit with the game much better than an artificial concept of bad luck or a forced apocalypse.

Apologies if you saw this above, but it was touched on pretty directly: "Ghost transformations are one of those metaphysical matters that didn't have explanations attempted in the game when they existed, just like the current undead regions.  When those have explanations, things like ruins with zombies should arise more naturally.  This could involve gods in pantheons of death/rebirth/etc., regions linked to death/etc. for whatever reason, etc., but it's all specific mechanics at that point."

Yeah I read that, but that had more of a tone of passive interaction - IF a bunch of people died or a civ was ruined, zombies could show up due to sphere influence. I'm talking more along the lines of angered powers causing volcanic eruptions, creating megabeasts, sending a plague of locusts, that kind of thing.

There are a few narratives getting confused here, and we have to look at them separately.  When I was talking about bad luck or a forced apocalypse, it was with respect to an Armok 1 dev notion of a forced plot event in a world's generation parameters.  Having a god hate you would be insufficient to absolutely guarantee a plot event on a schedule.  Setting a god to hate you from the beginning is more like the kind of bad luck I was getting at.  If that failed to kill you on schedule, it would have to force it.  However, I'm not sure the notion of forced plot events will be used at all.  There's a lot that can be done with world gen parameters before that which is more interesting.

There was an earlier quote from the giant post that might be closer to what you were looking for, in terms of active/passive:  "the general idea here is to generate a creation myth for a given world, which might involve some or all of the pantheons that are eventually worshipped, and then each of the gods which exist, the mega beasts, powers, forces, intelligent critters and wilderness beasts will have more of a foundation to go ahead with their antics.  In particular, some of them could appear before others, and they could get it on to make others, and that sort of thing.  I remember creating some kind of list for Armok 1 that had ways that each of the groups could create, destroy or interact with each of the other groups (which leads to the fairly common alternate models like civilizations creating actual gods through worship and that sort of thing)."  In a world with active gods (which would probably be a param thing), you should expect all manner of crap.  They'd just be given an independent hist fig world gen turn like a megabeast, most likely, but with access to whatever broad list of actions they have available.  I should reiterate that I have no timeline for this stuff, just that I'm all for it.

I frequently see invaders show up with two-handed swords and shields at the same time. Is any of the new work going to fix that?

Probably not -- the specific problem we were talking about before will likely work out fine, but multi-grasp weapons are still fundamentally broken in many ways that'll be more combat arcishly fixed.

Entity and Civ question:  Would a civ group that predominately worships death ever do such a thing as get carried away and decide to all kill themselves?  Would a Civ group that worships undeath ever do such a thing as deliberately seek the zombie or skeleton state?  Maybe even successfully discover a sentient sort of undead state, and remain a viable (ha!) part of the Civ?

He he, it happened in an ASCII Art Reward.  The spheres associated to religions should certain translate to meaningful acts.  I have no idea when though.  As adventure mode "quests" become more interesting (or the concept dissolves), and leaders get more independence with the pre-siege stuff, it'll start to come up, anyway.

Combat question: Regarding enemy and combat IA, I've noticed that (mostly in adventure mode) goblin children often rush you, running right by the strewn weapons of their fallen guardsman, running right by the handy pile of stones, to try to wrestle and punch you.  Are we looking at an improvement in the future where an enemy without a suitable weapon will try to recover one from the battlefield, or a case where children pick up rocks to attack the full grown adventurer?

Not this time around.  Oddly enough, the work on job priorities will probably start to open some doors there, as that involves gutting their thought processes, though it probably won't be looked at until the actual combat overhaul.

Could it do a, uh, automatic "partial" save-load?  It appears to have some way of adapting when the raws change during a real save-load, and that would be better than nothing even if it sucks.

I thought the idea of the original question was to avoid that, or maybe it was just the manual-ness of it that is bad.  If you don't mind sitting while it does all of everything that you would normally have to do manually, that would work.  The issues come up when you try to do it any faster than that.

Toady with the mythos/plot generator, will it be possible for it to set up Armagedon scenarios or at least situations where the mass destruction of the world is possible? Both in World Generation and when the player is involved (afterall the world ending during World Gen would be boring outside of the planes arc).
-I am mostly reminded of one person's failed attept to break into the HFS. His fortress was destroyed and the demons that poured out and proceeded to destroy much of the world due to the sheer number of powerful beings.

Originally, we had a few broad arcs for a world's life.  There were the fading out ones (which is most like the current system, just because nothing comes back), the marches toward apocalypse, the cyclic ones, and the sort of "gothic" style where there's an established order and you just sort of cower against it on the bottom rung.  That kind of division is no longer in the cards really, but the notion of having powerful forces and established metaphysical facts like a predestined ending to the world are all still floating around.  I guess it would be amusing if the world ended during world gen -- it would just be a reject, he he he.  In terms of the demons and all that, once the pre-siege individuals are thinking about things, both anything you've released and the mega beasts and so on will begin to be more than just random attack events, which should be cool.

Will Civilisations always avoid Spherical lands like they currently do or can desperate or foolish leaders convince others to start to live there?

Right now it's all stark and hard-coded.  I don't imagine it'll stay that way, but it'll probably be that way for a while, though their little pet gathering adventures already break the no-savagery rule, so I guess it's hard to say.

Will the Sphere related curse be gradual in effect over time Can Spherical lands have degrees of power? In one example you said something about learning to dance by staying in a land of joy, eventually will the energy build up to even more adverse effects possibly dependent on the degree of sphere power?
-Though that assumes that all Spherical lands will cause problems and changes for non-natives just for being around it for certain periods of times.

If the good/evil model is carried over, they'd be rated on their sphere strength from 0 to 100, and I don't think there's any reason not to stick with something like that.  The good/evil tile value would be free, so I can either not expand the memory footprint and have the region have a single sphere profile which is stretched out in one direction (so a tile could be 1:2:1 or 2:4:2 or 4:8:4 in the three spheres of a given region), or I could scrap the field and have dynamic overlapping regions like the territories, which could only get obscenely large if most spheres figures in most places, which would be silly.  On the other hand, decoupling the sphere ratings from the regions might also be strange, depending on the relationship between regions and their spheres and why the power has manifested in a given way.  Anyway, yeah, there should be degrees.  What that means in terms of curses will really depend on the curse definitions.  As with venom, I imagine there will be all sorts of available models in a slowly growing list.

Spherical lands seem to have adverse effects over long periods of time on its non-native inhabitants. Though I guess I could extend this question to curses as a whole. Will there be an idea of being changed to the point of losing one's race in the eyes of others? For example will someone whos ears turn into batwings still be considered human? Will it depend on the civilisation?

Yeah, Zach and I have discussed the general problem quite a bit -- body appearance, clothing appearances, stylings, all that should enter into reactions/impressions, but it's an easy thing to put off.  It should probably depend on individual entities, their defs and even the creature defs.  I suppose it could be a can of worms in what ways human xenophobia is cultural or more of a species thing.  Our goblins are supposed to be very tolerant of or even nearly oblivious to odd appearances, on the other hand, and elves are tolerant in their own way, since they hang out with talking animals and stuff.  Kobolds are probably less tolerant that humans, but that could just be the massive cultural barrier.  I have no idea what a kobold would do if a human walked up and started communicating properly.  Dwarves?  Things that aren't dwarves probably make them grumpier and even more apt to drink or something...  distrustful but not murderous?

Toady, any chance we could see RAW examples of a Sword and Spear to go with the bludgeoning weapons?

Sure.  Here's what I've got so far.  Tentative as usual.  Training weapons should probably be a little heavier than their edged counterparts, since they are thicker.  (The "WEIGHT" is actually a volume, still have to change that, and probably to mm^3 like the others, thought those numbers would be some of the worst guesses ever made).

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_WHIP]
[NAME:whip:whips]
[WEIGHT:10]
[SKILL:WHIP]
[TWO_HANDED:27500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:22500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:1]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:10:10:lash:lashes:NO_SUB:5000]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_AXE_BATTLE]
[NAME:battle axe:battle axes]
[WEIGHT:80]
[SKILL:AXE]
[TWO_HANDED:47500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:42500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:4]

The format is ATTACK:EDGE/BLUNT:contact area:penetration size:verb2nd:verb3rd:noun:velocity multiplier
Penetration size currently only matters for edged attacks.

[ATTACK:EDGE:1500:6000:hack:hacks:NO_SUB:1250]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:1500:6000:slap:slaps:flat:1250]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:100:1000:strike:strikes:pommel:1000]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_HAMMER_WAR]
[NAME:war hammer:war hammers]
[WEIGHT:40]
[SKILL:HAMMER]
[TWO_HANDED:37500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:32500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:3]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:200:200:bash:bashes:NO_SUB:2000]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_SWORD_SHORT]
[NAME:short sword:short swords]
[WEIGHT:30]
[SKILL:SWORD]
[TWO_HANDED:37500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:32500]
[CAN_STONE]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:3]
[ATTACK:EDGE:1000:4000:slash:slashes:NO_SUB:1250]
[ATTACK:EDGE:50:2000:stab:stabs:NO_SUB:1000]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:1000:4000:slap:slaps:flat:1250]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:100:1000:strike:strikes:pommel:1000]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_SPEAR]
[NAME:spear:spears]
[WEIGHT:40]
[SKILL:SPEAR]
[TWO_HANDED:47500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:42500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:3]
[ATTACK:EDGE:20:10000:stab:stabs:NO_SUB:1000]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:1000:6000:bash:bashes:shaft:1250]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_MACE]
[NAME:mace:maces]
[WEIGHT:40]
[SKILL:MACE]
[TWO_HANDED:37500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:32500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:3]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:300:4000:bash:bashes:NO_SUB:2000]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_CROSSBOW]
[NAME:crossbow:crossbows]
[WEIGHT:40]
[SKILL:HAMMER]
[RANGED:CROSSBOW:BOLT]
[SHOOT_FORCE:1000]
[SHOOT_MAXVEL:100]  This is just to make sure a near-weightless object doesn't go faster than the string could possibly go.
[TWO_HANDED:0]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:42500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:3]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:1000:4000:bash:bashes:NO_SUB:1250]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_PICK]
[NAME:pick:picks]
[WEIGHT:50]
[SKILL:MINING]
[TWO_HANDED:47500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:42500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:4]
[ATTACK:EDGE:100:4000:strike:strikes:NO_SUB:2000]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_BOW]
[NAME:bow:bows]
[WEIGHT:30]
[SKILL:SWORD]
[RANGED:BOW:ARROW]
[SHOOT_FORCE:1000]
[SHOOT_MAXVEL:100]
[TWO_HANDED:0]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:42500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:3]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:1000:4000:bash:bashes:NO_SUB:1250]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_BLOWGUN]
[NAME:blowgun:blowguns]
[WEIGHT:15]
[SKILL:SWORD]
[RANGED:BLOWGUN:BLOWDART]
[SHOOT_FORCE:100]
[SHOOT_MAXVEL:1000] I suppose you could blow harder and harder, but the force prevents it from getting out of hand.
[TWO_HANDED:0]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:22500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:2]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:1000:4000:bash:bashes:NO_SUB:1250]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_PIKE]
[NAME:pike:pikes]
[WEIGHT:80]
[SKILL:PIKE]
[TWO_HANDED:67500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:62500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:4]
[ATTACK:EDGE:20:12000:stab:stabs:NO_SUB:1000]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:1000:6000:bash:bashes:shaft:1250]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_HALBERD]
[NAME:halberd:halberds]
[WEIGHT:120]
[SKILL:AXE]
[TWO_HANDED:67500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:62500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:5]
[ATTACK:EDGE:1000:8000:slash:slashes:NO_SUB:1250]
[ATTACK:EDGE:50:2000:stab:stabs:NO_SUB:1000]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:1000:6000:bash:bashes:shaft:1250]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_SWORD_2H]
[NAME:two-handed sword:two-handed swords]
[WEIGHT:90]
[SKILL:SWORD]
[TWO_HANDED:67500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:62500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:5]
[ATTACK:EDGE:2000:8000:slash:slashes:NO_SUB:1250]
[ATTACK:EDGE:50:4000:stab:stabs:NO_SUB:1000]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:2000:8000:slap:slaps:flat:1250]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:100:1000:strike:strikes:pommel:1000]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_SWORD_LONG]
[NAME:long sword:long swords]
[WEIGHT:70]
[SKILL:SWORD]
[TWO_HANDED:57500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:52500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:4]
[ATTACK:EDGE:1500:6000:slash:slashes:NO_SUB:1250]
[ATTACK:EDGE:50:3000:stab:stabs:NO_SUB:1000]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:1500:6000:slap:slaps:flat:1250]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:100:1000:strike:strikes:pommel:1000]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_MAUL]
[NAME:maul:mauls]
[WEIGHT:130]
[SKILL:HAMMER]
[TWO_HANDED:67500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:62500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:5]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:500:6000:bash:bashes:NO_SUB:2000]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_AXE_GREAT]
[NAME:great axe:great axes]
[WEIGHT:130]
[SKILL:AXE]
[TWO_HANDED:67500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:62500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:5]
[ATTACK:EDGE:2000:8000:hack:hacks:NO_SUB:1250]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:2000:8000:slap:slaps:flat:1250]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:100:1000:strike:strikes:pommel:1000]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_DAGGER_LARGE]
[NAME:dagger:daggers]
[ADJECTIVE:large]
[WEIGHT:20]
[SKILL:DAGGER]
[TWO_HANDED:27500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:22500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:1]
[ATTACK:EDGE:200:800:slash:slashes:NO_SUB:1250]
[ATTACK:EDGE:30:1000:stab:stabs:NO_SUB:1000]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:50:600:strike:strikes:pommel:1000]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_SCOURGE]
[NAME:scourge:scourges]
[WEIGHT:30]
[SKILL:WHIP]
[TWO_HANDED:27500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:22500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:2]
[ATTACK:EDGE:10:50:lash:lashes:NO_SUB:2000]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_FLAIL]
[NAME:flail:flails]
[WEIGHT:50]
[SKILL:MACE]
[TWO_HANDED:47500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:42500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:4]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:500:4000:bash:bashes:NO_SUB:2500]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_MORNINGSTAR]
[NAME:morningstar:morningstars]
[WEIGHT:50]
[SKILL:MACE]
[TWO_HANDED:37500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:32500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:3]
[ATTACK:EDGE:10:500:bash:bashes:NO_SUB:2000]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:100:1000:strike:strikes:pommel:1000]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_SCIMITAR]
[NAME:scimitar:scimitars]
[WEIGHT:30]
[SKILL:SWORD]
[TWO_HANDED:37500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:32500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:3]
[ATTACK:EDGE:1000:4000:slash:slashes:NO_SUB:1250]
[ATTACK:EDGE:50:2000:stab:stabs:NO_SUB:1000]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:1000:4000:slap:slaps:flat:1250]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:100:1000:strike:strikes:pommel:1000]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_AXE_TRAINING]
[NAME:training axe:training axes]
[WEIGHT:80]
[SKILL:AXE]
[TWO_HANDED:47500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:42500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:4]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:1500:6000:hack:hacks:NO_SUB:1250]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:1500:6000:slap:slaps:flat:1250]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:100:1000:strike:strikes:pommel:1000]
[TRAINING]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_SWORD_SHORT_TRAINING]
[NAME:training sword:training swords]
[WEIGHT:30]
[SKILL:SWORD]
[TWO_HANDED:37500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:32500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:3]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:1000:4000:slash:slashes:NO_SUB:1250]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:50:2000:stab:stabs:NO_SUB:1000]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:1000:4000:slap:slaps:flat:1250]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:100:1000:strike:strikes:pommel:1000]
[TRAINING]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_SPEAR_TRAINING]
[NAME:training spear:training spears]
[WEIGHT:40]
[SKILL:SPEAR]
[TWO_HANDED:47500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:42500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:3]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:20:10000:stab:stabs:NO_SUB:1000]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:1000:6000:bash:bashes:shaft:1250]
[TRAINING]


And the spoilered question:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

it would be awesome if Dwarf Fortress were to enter the elite ranks of games with properly feathered therapod dinosaurs, although modding in feathers would probably be pretty easy.

Ha ha, all right.  Done.  Birds had feathers (they just aren't harvestable/useful without some sort of modding), so I just moved theropods over to that class of random creature, in terms of the surface cover (hair/feathers/scales etc.).  Although I think because these are for random giant beasts right now...  weren't they thinking larger ones like tyrannosaurus and so on didn't have full feather coverage, in the same way that an elephant/rhino/etc. doesn't have full hair coverage (due to the heat or whatever))?  I guess there were wooooollly mammoths, which had full coverage, though that might be a special case due to the special weather.

[smjjames]

Tyrannosaur chicks probably had downy feathers covering them which they shed later.

On the note of liasons, will we have Elven civ liasons? I'm not talking about your dwarven civ having an elf or goblin liason (I've never seen a dwarf civ with a human liason, maybe because their lives are short), I'm talking about the Elves having their own liason. This may actually be possible now with modding. I had heard of people mentioning the elves having liasons but they die off in worldgen and aren't replaced. I would make this question green, but it may get answered by the modders as I'm not sure.

Do you mean a diplomat of any kind?  They send somebody over in the currently released version to make tree cutting agreements if you get up to a baron, I think.

No, I'm talking about the same liasons that set up trade agreements. I don't remember where I heard about the elves having trade liasons which get killed off in worldgen. I don't actually see any elven civ liasons when I look in worldgen though. I may have heard of some people modding elves to have liasons for their civs. I'm probably getting confused with something that I read months ago, plus I've heard of modded races sending liasons as well, so, not sure.

[Aqizzar]

The morning-star entry raises a question: is the new weapon striking system not able to convey an otherwise blunt weapon with a piercing point?  Because the proper attack of the morning-star looks like a scourge with more weight behind it.

It may have been asked before, but will all those extra attacks, with slaps and bashes and such, come up in regular use, or is that just preparation for the later combat overhaul?

And as long as I'm asking, is not the ultimate example of a spear the pointed stick?  The training "spear" is basically just a pole.  I'm just saying, for primitives like the kobolds especially, a pointed wooden weapon would be fun.

[Mephansteras]

The format is ATTACK:EDGE/BLUNT:contact area:penetration size:verb2nd:verb3rd:noun:velocity multiplier
Penetration size currently only matters for edged attacks.

[ATTACK:EDGE:1500:6000:hack:hacks:NO_SUB:1250]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:1500:6000:slap:slaps:flat:1250]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:100:1000:strike:strikes:pommel:1000]

What determines when a creature uses the various attack types? Obviously with an axe you're going to want to hack at people the vast majority of the time. Is it going to be silly and random until the combat arc? Or is it going to assume the first one on the list is the primary attack or something?

@smjjames: You're probably thinking of modded elves. I know the High Elves in my mod have merchant barons like the humans, so they make trade agreements and whatnot while the normal elves only do the tree based negotiations.

[Toady One]

It weighs the edge attacks 100 to 1 against the blunt ones, so you'll see an equal number of thrusts and slashes, but fewer pommel/flats.  It does make training look a little weird though.  I didn't want to get too far into it this time since the overall system there is going to be adjusted for opportunity numbers, most likely, and I'm not sure what I'll need.

[Neonivek]

With that I think Ill stop asking questions for a while.

Thanks for answerig them Toady

[Toady One]

The morning-star entry raises a question: is the new weapon striking system not able to convey an otherwise blunt weapon with a piercing point?  Because the proper attack of the morning-star looks like a scourge with more weight behind it.

Yeah, it can't do anything neat yet, though the wounds themselves could handle more.  Scourges themselves should create more injuries, and who knows how a whip should actually be handled, since it's kind of weirdly fast.  I'm just doing it fast and small and blunt right now, but I'm not sure if that'll actually open up good gashes or just weird little holes.

And as long as I'm asking, is not the ultimate example of a spear the pointed stick?  The training "spear" is basically just a pole.  I'm just saying, for primitives like the kobolds especially, a pointed wooden weapon would be fun.

I still need better material control there (I guess the elves' weapons are kind of like that).  More time spent on the new/revived underground animal people civs might seal it, but I'm not sure.


I don't think elves have trade nobles right now, but they might end up with them if they end up with the variable-position tag like humans there instead of nothing.  We haven't decided if that's being thrown in or not.

[Quatch]

With the new training, and training weapons, will it still be possible to cross train an (ie) axdwarf first in wrestling (or its new equiv), and other combat skills until they are "safe", then start them with proper weapons? (and still expect a low injury rate). Or will sparring with dummies, and boffers be the only viable approach (that doesnt lead to mass injury)

[Jiri Petru]

They still stood around doing nothing, because it was still failing the personality check for the instructor, who wasn't reckless enough to send such green recruits off to spar.

Minor details like this have a potential to be awesome. However, I'm afraid they aren't awesome, unless the player somehow knows about them. There's a huge difference between, say, these two examples:
- "Why are my recruits wounded? I see! It's because their captain is reckless and let them spar too soon."
- "Why are my recruits wounded? I don't know. The random number generator probably had a bad mood."

I suppose there is plenty of other cases in DF when the personality plays a role. The problem here is that unless the player know about them, he's going to assume they aren't there, and that it was all just randomly generated. What the player can't see is as if it weren't, and it has no effect on his enjoyment of the game. The whole feature is basically pointless and wasted.

Finally, my questions:
1. Do you intend to somehow tell the players about details like personality effects, which are invisible as for now?
2. Until you make it happen, could you at least write about it in the devlog like now? 

[Sean Mirrsen]

Some ideas for weapons, if you don't mind, Tarn. Some of these will likely not be implemented, but whatever.

It's nice to see that the weapon attacks are finally made to be like creature attacks. There are a few ways to make them better, but there are two parameters some will probably overlook. The weapon skill required for an attack, and the energy required for the attack. With the new system, it is possible to create Martial Arts for weapons, but all attacks will be usable anytime. But you could, for example, allow a high-speed slashing attack with a spear's point that is only useable once you've got to at least Master level with the spear. Same goes for meta-magical weapons (like Artifacts, for example) that would likely act as semi-normal weapons with high stats unless you give them to a Legendary, in which case you'd get devastating elemental attacks. The different energy requirement (for the purposes of fatigue) could be deduced from just the weight and velocity, but for meta-magical weapons it'd make sense if the super-powerful insta-goblin-kebab-flaming-spear-attack used a little more energy than usual.

Also, [SHOOT_MAXVEL] is a nice thing, but there should also be a [MAXVEL] for ammo, if there isn't one already. Aerodynamics and stuff.
And it's probably asking for the impossible, but any chance of having arbitrary object classes instead of just ammo classes for ranged weapons? Slings and hand-catapults suddenly lose their charm when their ammo has to be made rather than picked up in any rocky place.

[smjjames]

@smjjames: You're probably thinking of modded elves. I know the High Elves in my mod have merchant barons like the humans, so they make trade agreements and whatnot while the normal elves only do the tree based negotiations.

Yea you're probably right. I thought I may have been talking about a modded thing which is why I didn't green the question as one of the modders probably had the answer.

[SHOOT_MAXVEL:100]  This is just to make sure a near-weightless object doesn't go faster than the string could possibly go.

In other words, it can't exceed the speed of light due to relativity.

Anyways, yea the Morningstar is a bit wierd because its a cross between a whip and a mace. Its a stick with a chain and a spiked ball on the other end of it. I'm not sure if DF can simulate the physics of something that complex yet.

Edit: "threw teeth and training swords" (from the devlog)

I lol'd at the throwing the teeth around part. I bet whoever was left in the training room scrambled for cover since a thrown sword has the potential to be lethal, even if its a training sword.