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[G-Flex]

I was talking to people on IRC about the new uses for soap, and sanitation, and so forth, and I was wondering:

Are there any plans to add the use of alcohol as a sanitary agent?

It's my understanding that, as far as surgery is concerned, alcohol is probably better than soap, and certainly not worse, for disinfecting the area being operated on. I'm not sure if there's something I'm missing here, but to me it seems like dwarves would be able to use hard liquor for sanitation with at least the same effectiveness as soap, especially since soap isn't really something you want to get in any kind of serious wound. Obviously soap is good for actually bathing and washing off minor cuts and such, but wouldn't alcohol make a cheaper and probably better sanitary agent for medical procedures?

Then again, medieval people probably didn't actually KNOW this. But then again, maybe they did? I'm not sure what kind of research you've done on the subject, but I'm interested to hear.


Of course, there's also an alternative explanation I just thought of: That dwarves, like medieval people, didn't really care about sanitation, per se, and that they're just using the soap and water to wash off whatever muck is on their hands and the area surrounding the wound.

[Christes]

A while back, I remember reading about spirits being used in military dressings in the late medieval era.  It's not suprising given that soldiers had no shortage of liquor and open wounds.  Eventually, they're bound to come together. 

But wound treatment back then was generally rather poor and inconsistent, so it might not have been too widespread.  However, I think it makes perfect sense for dwarves to use the stuff that way.

[Dante]

I think it makes perfect sense that dwarves would rather lose an arm or two rather than waste precious booze.

"Tis a mere flesh wound!"

[Chronas]

Would a dwarf rather enjoy a nice drink o' booze, or use the whole bottle to clean invisible germs out of his badly cut ear to stop it rotting and falling off, even though it only has cosmetic value?

[Footkerchief]

Are there any plans to add the use of alcohol as a sanitary agent?

It's my understanding that, as far as surgery is concerned, alcohol is probably better than soap, and certainly not worse, for disinfecting the area being operated on. I'm not sure if there's something I'm missing here, but to me it seems like dwarves would be able to use hard liquor for sanitation with at least the same effectiveness as soap, especially since soap isn't really something you want to get in any kind of serious wound. Obviously soap is good for actually bathing and washing off minor cuts and such, but wouldn't alcohol make a cheaper and probably better sanitary agent for medical procedures?

Then again, medieval people probably didn't actually KNOW this. But then again, maybe they did? I'm not sure what kind of research you've done on the subject, but I'm interested to hear.

According to this source (which looks like a decent general resource on disinfectants), "Alcohol is perhaps the oldest of antiseptic agents, being recommended for wound treatment by Claudius Galen (131-201 AD) and Guy de Chauliac (1363)."  So it's period-appropriate beyond a doubt, and it strikes me as pretty thematically appropriate as well.

[Neoskel]

Ok, we've put alcohol on your wound to prevent any nasty infections.

...

STOP LICKING IT!

[TerminatorII]

Also consider that Honey is a great antibacterial agent as well... people of ancient times used it with bandages to cover a wound to keep the wound clean and speed the healing process

[Akroma]

if creatures created in workshops have vermin AI, then why not ctreate a spider-farm workshop, the creates cave spiders (the small kind) so I can have a running silk-production even without any cave spiders ?

[RedKing]

IMHO, the only appropriate use of alcohol in dwarven medicine is the kind you see in a good Western or war movie, where the hero takes a swig of whiskey before getting cauterized or amputated or what have you.

Which brings up the question--wonder if there's a way for Toady to work cauterization into the mix (probably future release). Either as a part of dwarven medicine, or as an interaction between high temperature and tissue layers. Problem is, it seems you'd have to have some sort of intermediate state between "normal" and "on fire/melting".

[Warlord255]

IMHO, the only appropriate use of alcohol in dwarven medicine is the kind you see in a good Western or war movie, where the hero takes a swig of whiskey before getting cauterized or amputated or what have you.

Which brings up the question--wonder if there's a way for Toady to work cauterization into the mix (probably future release). Either as a part of dwarven medicine, or as an interaction between high temperature and tissue layers. Problem is, it seems you'd have to have some sort of intermediate state between "normal" and "on fire/melting".

That, and the job of producing or maintaining a low-temperature fire vs. current fuel considerations.

[G-Flex]

Are there any plans to add the use of alcohol as a sanitary agent?

It's my understanding that, as far as surgery is concerned, alcohol is probably better than soap, and certainly not worse, for disinfecting the area being operated on. I'm not sure if there's something I'm missing here, but to me it seems like dwarves would be able to use hard liquor for sanitation with at least the same effectiveness as soap, especially since soap isn't really something you want to get in any kind of serious wound. Obviously soap is good for actually bathing and washing off minor cuts and such, but wouldn't alcohol make a cheaper and probably better sanitary agent for medical procedures?

Then again, medieval people probably didn't actually KNOW this. But then again, maybe they did? I'm not sure what kind of research you've done on the subject, but I'm interested to hear.

According to this source (which looks like a decent general resource on disinfectants), "Alcohol is perhaps the oldest of antiseptic agents, being recommended for wound treatment by Claudius Galen (131-201 AD) and Guy de Chauliac (1363)."  So it's period-appropriate beyond a doubt, and it strikes me as pretty thematically appropriate as well.

Neat, a real answer. Thanks.

[Granite26]

Unless I'm very much mistaken, lye soap isn't actually a disinfectant.

From Wiki:

Applied to a soiled surface, soapy water effectively holds particles in colloidal suspension so it can be rinsed off with clean water. The hydrophobic portion (made up of a long hydrocarbon chain) dissolves dirt and oils, while the ionic end dissolves in water. Therefore, it allows water to remove normally-insoluble matter by emulsification. In other words, while normally oil and water do not mix, the addition of soap allows oils to dissolve in water, allowing them to be rinsed away.

It just aids in getting dirt off.  That's why your common bathroom dispensers specify Antibiotic Soap, something not found in pre-modern times.

Edit ->Replaced Spoiler with Quote

[smjjames]

It's still far better for a wound to be clean than dirty anyways.

Can you give us an idea how the hospitals are set up now? Like is there a specific burrow type (which is most likely) or do we designate a hospital room from a bed or table or whatever?

Right now, the 'hospital wing' is usually either the barracks, the dwarfs own room (happens this way for me most of the time), or unclaimed beds somewhere

[Grax]

It just aids in getting dirt off.  That's why your common bathroom dispensers specify Antibiotic Soap, something not found in pre-modern times.

Magma soap?

*What with the medication of open wounds with red hot iron?*

[Neonivek]

Normal soap can get rid of several kinds of bacteria by removing what it connects to.

As for alcohol the question is in what form it comes in. Is it ordinary alcoholic beverages? or is it things like rubbing alcohol?