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[CobaltKobold]

The civil part being the whole failed-mandates punishment thing.  Though the punishments even on that scale seem more criminal than civil.

You're missing the whole feudal-nobility thing. They are/make the law. Those mandates are laws being broken. A noble was often called by the name of his territory- the ruler of a territory IS the territory, in a very literal sense. (See: Hobbes's Leviathan for a way of depicting.) This is the principle behind the 'royal we' thing- they are the land and the people and the law. So, by disobeying their mandate/law, you are not just disobeying a single person, you are disobeying the law, the land, and its people. this would, in that mindset, mean that it is a criminal offense, no?

As for the killing of floor-carver 11, it might make a bad situation worse currently (tantrum spiral perhaps?) but if you do not punish, then there is no standing threat and action behind the law, and the illusion of rule of law might begin to fall apart. (And if you want to bring research on punishment not actually deterring crime, sure- but mind, the dwarfs do not ha'e that research.)

[Leafsnail]

but if you do not punish, then there is no standing threat and action behind the law, and the illusion of rule of law might begin to fall apart.

Yep, I know.  But then again, I can just dissolve my Hammerer in magma and nothing like this happens.  Could be an idea...

[Mephansteras]

Restitution should definitely make it into the game at some point. Most ancient civilizations had very specific rules on what punishments were given for a specific crime. Most of them involved the restitution of some sort (an amount of silver, cows, etc) to the injured party. Especially for cases of properly damage.

Something like: You kill your neighbor's cow, you owe him a new cow plus some chickens.

Considering how materialistic the dwarves are, this makes a lot of sense for them. Not so much during the communistic early fort stage at the moment, but certainly later on once the economy kicks in.

And I'm sure that'll get even more pronounced once the Caravan arc gets going and a more sophisticated economy simulation is put into place.

[Warlord255]

I think thievery and brawling - not tantrums, but mutual one-on-one battles - need to come into play before the justice system feels, well, just.

[Footkerchief]

Restitution should definitely make it into the game at some point. Most ancient civilizations had very specific rules on what punishments were given for a specific crime. Most of them involved the restitution of some sort (an amount of silver, cows, etc) to the injured party. Especially for cases of properly damage.

Some societies did this with murder too.

[Untelligent]

Before we get too far away from the conversation regarding castes:



Will we be forced to use the new caste system to allow a creature to be male/female, or can we just use a default 1:1 gender ratio, like the current system?

Because it sounds like it would be annoying to make castes related to something other than gender if the former will be the case.

[Footkerchief]

Will we be forced to use the new caste system to allow a creature to be male/female, or can we just use a default 1:1 gender ratio, like the current system?

Because it sounds like it would be annoying to make castes related to something other than gender if the former will be the case.

Pretty sure you have to use castes.  What about it seems annoying?  The fact that males and females can't belong to the same caste?  I guess that could be slightly problematic.

[ArkDelgato]

Wait, so can I or can't I have a caste that makes totally different animals?

(What I had planned for a mod was breeding dogs into a feral killing machine or super-domesticated killing machine [Dire wolves and Greater Danes])
I planned a few links in this (5% chance of dog to wild-dog, then 5% to wolf, then 5% to direwolf)

Would this be possible?

[LordNagash]

You can do that as far as I am aware, but you can't have one caste turn into another caste at any point during it's life, due to the non trivial issues this raises.

So for example you could have what you were suggesting, but you couldn't have say giant flymen give birth to grubs which then turned into flymen

[Warlord255]

You can do that as far as I am aware, but you can't have one caste turn into another caste at any point during it's life, due to the non trivial issues this raises.

So for example you could have what you were suggesting, but you couldn't have say giant flymen give birth to grubs which then turned into flymen

Unless you had the arms, legs and contingent flyman parts start at size 0 and grow rapidly once they reached child age? And giant flymen were just a caste?

[Neonivek]

As for Privilage.

It may not even be that the Legendary Blacksmith does get special treatment under the law EXACTLY.

It could be that he is best friends with the king, he is able to bribe the hammerer (who may officially be allowed to take bribes), maybe the judge wants to be friends with the rich Blacksmith, or maybe the law is set up so that with enough money you can buy your way out of jail.

Anyhow for the most part "Prevention" for a lot of history is done under the assumption that "Harsher crimes makes people less likely to do it" and as it seems that isn't entirely the case and can even work in reverse (depending on the crime and previous punishment). Heck as some people pointed out a lot of the justice system was Class Warfare or propagating a certain classes stature.
Example 1: In Shakespear's time it was illegal to wear the clothing of someone of a higher class then you.
Example 2: In some places the law for theft is incredably high under the assumption that the "poor" would do so.

It would however still be nice to see Dwarves say "There is a lot of thefts here lately, lets increase the punishment from a shaving to cutting off their hands so they will be less inclined to do so" and due to a poor justice system have that have little effect.

Or for a Noble to go "I am the fance Pantsiest Noble that there ever was. I loathe that rabble, if any of them touch me or fail to bow may their heads be cut off".
-Interestingly enough a lot of Nobles did enjoy doing things for the lowest classes. Some places have legends where the Rich would shower coins onto them.

[JoRo]

If paying a fine becomes a justice option, that might help keep your legendaries from getting crippled or imprisoned.  Legendary dwarves seem to rack up a fortune, so they could easily pay their way out of punishments.

[CobaltKobold]

legendary dwarves are exempt from paying for things, as I understand it, just like nobles.
un? fortunately, df players make me think the following on this:
Hammerer: "You must pay for your crimes!"
Urist McAdventurerCriminal: "Certainly!"
The spinning $gold coin$ strikes the Hammerer in the head!
It is smashed into the body, an unrecognizable mass!
The Hammerer has been struck down.

edit: To bring up a semi-old topic on raw numbers for shear strength and the like, wouldn't crystal structure matter for those? A lot?

[smjjames]

I don't think crystal structure is directly simulated, but the raws with the tensile strength, shear point, etc, simulates the properties if it had a crystal structure.

[Granite26]

Wait, so can I or can't I have a caste that makes totally different animals?

(What I had planned for a mod was breeding dogs into a feral killing machine or super-domesticated killing machine [Dire wolves and Greater Danes])
I planned a few links in this (5% chance of dog to wild-dog, then 5% to wolf, then 5% to direwolf)

Would this be possible?

No, not possible.  You can define the prevelance of castes.  Each caste gets a number, 1-100000 or so, that determines the ratios used.  You'd sum up all the numbers, and IND_CASTE/ALL_CASTES is the chance of the creature being any given one.

This roll is made regardless of caste of the parents (I.E. what caste your parents are doesn't affect what caste you are)


For the male female thing, if you look at the example raws, it's possible to have creatures where the ONLY tag that's below the caste marker is male/female.  Remember, for the caste structure, you get 'general traits' that apply to all castes, and 'specific traits' that apply to just the caste that they are in.


I THINK (but don't know) that that's where the 'body plan' stuff comes from.  You might need a normal body plan for the base caste, but I haven't seen any reason why you couldn't add extra limbs as part of the caste definitions.  Actually, can we get the 'no different body plans' quotes?  I'm about ready to call BS on that.