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[Neonivek]

From what I seen of Obsideon blades... they generally are made like Clubs. (or they are clubs with bits of obsideon blades on it)

So I guess even if the blade broke you then simply beat your opponent over the head with it!

[praguepride]

Once item wear gets into it that might make the difference and break obsidian's obscene hold on the weapon industry. Making the items have very low durability might make it worthwhile to eventually upgrade to steel once the infastructure is in place.

[umiman]

I may not be very familiar with the economics of a pre-machinery lifestyle, but the idea of repeatedly looking for a relatively rare rock, extracting said rock, beating it for hours with a hammer to make a precision instrument only to use it once or twice doesn't sound very cost-effective to me...

I'd wager it'd be a lot more effective to go through maybe three to four times the trouble to make a steel blade since you can use that far more often (and trust it not to break).

Think about it in Dwarf Fortress mode for a second. Suppose we have a large fort with 300 dwarves. At least 20 are injured and considering the lifestyles of dwarves, 19 of them need surgery. You'd thus need at least 19 scapels for that one instance. Imagine having to make those goddamn 19 obsidian scapels every 10 minutes. You'd either end up with a huge surplus (because you're too lazy to check it) or end up with a lot of dead dwarves. With steel, you make 19 scapels once and maybe 19 in a year when they all run out or get stolen by rhesus macaques or something.

Sure, obsidian CAN be used as a disposable scapel but I certainly wouldn't call it cheap or your best choice of action.

Of course, knowing the game, you'd probably make 19 obsidian scapels once since they're the same as steel.

[Neonivek]

Obsideon isn't so much rare as it is in select locations.

Though there are reasons why Metal armor was better then previous kinds of armor.

[SirHoneyBadger]

Sharpness isn't really all that necessarily in medieval combat, anyway.

A lot of medieval swords were never sharpened, because, when you got right down to it, bashing someone in the face with a big iron club got the job done in a lot of circumstances, without having to worry as much about the blade itself chipping or breaking.

Sharp is good and all, but it's not everything.

As far as obsidian scalpels go, they can be reused, and even resharpened. It does take some specialized skills, or specialized equipment, to do so, but it's certainly possible.

And while certainly not as durable as steel, they'd likely hold up very well under surgical conditions.

[praguepride]

Sharpness isn't really all that necessarily in medieval combat, anyway.

Tell that to a fencer or an archer

[Granite26]

Umimam,

that's kind of the point.  A steel industry takes years to set up.  Obsidian isn't the best option overall, but early in the fort, it might be the ONLY option.

Later on, you might want to switch BACK to obsidian, when the sunk cost to get a +20 obsidian scalpel vs a +19 steel scalpel are worth it to get that miniscule extra chance to save your champions, even if it takes a few time stonecrafter to make them.

[umiman]

I doubt it. Then again, none of us are doctors. It's well out of our field to even speculate on this because I myself have never held a scapel for anything more than to dissect my neighbours' annoying pets.

I'm merely stating that from an efficiency point of view, it's preferable to have something that can stand the test of time with minimal maintenance to something that other than the fact that it's relatively easy to make initially, requires far more maintenance later on. Considering that a good steel scapel isn't THAT difficult to make compared to making a piece of stone razor sharp, there's not a huge difference in initial cost anyway.

It's like choosing to buy a Volvo or getting a high-maintenance girlfriend. Why the hell would you do that? Sure you can brag about them, but it sure isn't fun to take care of them.

Granite: I don't think you understand what sunk cost means... And why would 20 obsidian scapels have a better chance of saving your champions compared to 19 scapels? Is one surgeon going to dual-wield obsidian scapels? The way I understand it, like everyone else said, in SURGERY, you don't need the sharpest blade... you just need one sharp enough. Both steel and obsidian are sharp enough. A heart transplant doesn't go better just because you got the sharpest blade in the world (contrary to what anime and drama would have you believe). Perhaps you don't understand the discussion? The one that's difficult to make is steel, not obsidian. Obsidian is just not efficient since they don't last as long.

Considering that the way in game currently to make an obsidian weapon is through the stonecrafter (who right now just smashes bits of obsidian onto a wooden plank), I would find it hard to believe that the guy can make a nanomolecular blade out of stone with his bare hands...

[bjlong]

Sharpness isn't really all that necessarily in medieval combat, anyway.

A lot of medieval swords were never sharpened, because, when you got right down to it, bashing someone in the face with a big iron club got the job done in a lot of circumstances, without having to worry as much about the blade itself chipping or breaking.

Umm... no. No historical evidence suggests anything like this. If you wanted to bash, you could use a hammer. Swords were used for cutting and stabbing. Their hilts were occasionally used for bashing. Against armor, swords were useful because they were able to be gripped at the center (which you can do with a sharp blade) and controlled to stab and cut more precisely at the weak points of the armor.

Edit: Sorry if that came across too harsh--it's a common myth, but one that gets to me every time I see it.

[Granite26]

I didn't say 19 scalpels, I said a +19 scalpel.  Currently steel and obsidian are both 1.25 damage, right?  well, the gist of the discussion is that obsidian may be sharper (1.30 damage) but not good for more than a few uses (rapid decay).  Steel is better in a fight, for sure, since the obsidian would only be 1 hit at the better rate.

A sharper scalpel IS going to help more, because a cleaner cut will heal faster.  It's also likely to last through at least an entire procedure.  Additionally, a glass smooth scalpel will have fewer contaminents clinging to it, meaning a lower risk of infection.

If this gives you a 1 in 100 better chance of saving your champion, people would do it, because the wasted cost of burning through obsidian scalpels(compared to making a single steel one and reusing it) is worth it, even for a trivial improvement in chance.  (Or, like I said, a +20 modifier vs a +19 modifier)

[umiman]

Wtf? A +19 scapel? Are you going to enchant it so it becomes a +19 scapel of +2 cold damage? Heee heee...

With that system, we could get +7 absolved steel scapels with +12 hp regen and +30 mana regen. Since surgeons consume 20 mana per turn they're not using healing touch, it would be more beneficial to them than a simple +19 hit modifier since the absolved steel allows for infinite operation time. We could combine that with the nurse's sacred shield ability to compensate for the loss in hit modifier since it gives a +20 temporary increase to patient health regen.

[Granite26]

Computer System dood:  Everything is going to resolve down to numeric bonuses.  Now you've stopped even trying to talk about the point.

[SirHoneyBadger]

bjlong: there's tons and tons and tons of historical evidence for that. Cutting power was being replaced by piercing power by the 12th-13th century, because of improvements in armour.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estoc

praguepride: neither of those is overly concerned with cutting power, only the acuteness of the point. Any sharpness is secondary.

[umiman]

You can't just imagine a system out of thin air and expect everyone to know it. Even Toady hasn't started work on it yet. You're assuming that surgery works that way when no one knows WHAT the numerical bonuses are or even IF there are any. Do metalsmiths in the game get benefits from having a legendary forge? Do marksdwarves get accuracy bonuses from a legendary crossbow? How can there be a discussion when you talk fantasy to compensate for reality?

[Granite26]

Even reality has bonuses.  I was using a generic + system on the assumption that gamers understand the difference in quality between a +19 item and a +20 item.  That is, not much  It's not specifics, it's an example that can be generalized