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[Mephansteras]

That would work well, but composite weapons probably ought to wait until partial stacks are in place.

That actually seems like a good idea though... swords SHOULD be more expensive to make (imho)

I'll agree that swords should be more expensive. But a spear should be CHEAP in comparison, and if they both take one metal bar and one wood, that's not really right. In reality, spears should take a decent amount of wood and a fraction of the metal that a sword takes, while the sword should probably use a lot more metal, plus a small amount of wood and some leather. Of course, you can also substitute some types of stone for the wood, which seems a lot more dwarven.

[Granite26]

I don't really disgree with you (long term), but I was thinking more game balance, weapons and armor should have a higher opportunity cost.

[Neonivek]

weapons and armor should have a higher opportunity cost

Well... They are pretty expencive as it is.

Though I guess it is because Forges are dirt cheap, ignoring the anvil, to make and both creating a forge and using a forge require absolutely no knowledge or skill to use

[Greiger]

Any old soap maker with access to an anvil and a shopping list can make fully functional steel platemail, chainmail, weapons, or anything else they can dream.  Which does seem a bit odd.

I can't really think of a better way though.  At least not some way thet wouldn't be overly convoluted.

[Alfador]

where a rapier (if it existed)

After a tad of research... Few Rapiers existed but weren't considered rapiers or called so until the 1500s or 1700s (also 2 of the 3 modern staple rapiers didn't exist). Or rather what would soon to be called Rapiers existed, but the term of Rapier didn't exist. Even then the ones existing in the 1400s were different then the later developments.

"(Ugh, why did they make mornings so damn early?)"

What else? Money!

Staple rapiers? I'm imagining a sword with an office stapler strapped to the end...

[Mephansteras]

Yeah. Part of the problem is that the smelter always outputs metal bars. In reality to make plate mail you'd need metal sheets, which is more complicated and technically advanced. Humans in DF probably shouldn't be ABLE to make plate mail, not unless they cast it from bronze, anyway. Chain mail would need wire, not bars. And most armor probably should be using some amount of leather for strapping, although that depends on the armor. In some cases you can use cording instead.

It's all part of abstraction of these things, I guess. Smithing is one of those areas where you have to balance realism with smooth gameplay.

[Alfador]

weapons and armor should have a higher opportunity cost

Well... They are pretty expencive as it is.

Though I guess it is because Forges are dirt cheap, ignoring the anvil, to make and both creating a forge and using a forge require absolutely no knowledge or skill to use

Not to mention the chicken-and-the-egg question here. If making a forge requires an anvil, and forging an anvil requires a forge... how did the first anvil get made?

Real life answer: You don't need an anvil to make an anvil--they can in fact be cut from stone.

Future DF possibility: Anvil quality determines a cap on quality for objects produced with it. Stone anvils less effective than iron, which is less than steel... but you may need to make other objects to make a non-stone anvil. Not necessarily a forge with a stone anvil--you may only need to make a cast and then work the unfinished anvil with polishing and shaping tools. I'm not sure COMPLETELY of what's involved in making a real anvil...

[Neonivek]

Staple rapiers? I'm imagining a sword with an office stapler strapped to the end

Foil, Epee, and Sabre.

Foil doesn't exist yet. Epee doesn't either... and the Sabre existed for a long time (my research suggests 1000s)

For the most part, the reason there arn't a lot of Rapiers prior to the 1500s is because for the most part they were so thin that it required the advances in metalcraft otherwise the blades would break rather easily (In fact the term Rapier didn't exist before then).

[SirHoneyBadger]

Neonivek: I like that idea, because it would give a purpose to adamantite anvals--let alone steel ones.

It could also be balanced out by requiring more metal bars (say 6), but only a single block of stone (that might not even be called an "anvil".).

Possibly only artifacts could be produced on a steel or adamantite anvil, since those two metals relate to dwarf culture more strongly than iron, and an adamantite anvil might be required, when the Magic Arc gets here.


I'd like to extend it a bit to say that possibly the total value of a building could limit the value of items produced there--but only in terms of monetary worth.

How many times have we looked at a shop, ourselves, and been able to judge, with a relative degree of accuracy, how much we're going to be able to afford there, just by looking at the building?

It doesn't matter so much how high *quality* the items are, only what popularity and trend says they should be worth. In other words, you're buying the label, or the name-brand.

[Awayfarer]

-snip-Wouldn't it be better if [elves] were hairy and capped out a four feet in height and preferred to live under the earth?

If elves were perfect, they would be dwarves. -snip-

We could cut the elves' legs off at the knees and staple their long, flowing locks to their chins. Would that help?

[Hectonkhyres]

We could cut the elves legs off at the knees and staple their long, flowing locks to their chins. Would that help?

Absolutely. It would even help give them a proper appreciation for alcohol.
Drinking themselves into an insensate stupor would be the only escape from the nightmare existence their lives have become.
...
Dwarfy indeed!

[SirHoneyBadger]

Small, portable anvils, like the Celts used, would be nice to see too, and would make sense if they had quality caps on them (for game balance, and despite the Celts being excellent metalsmiths.).

[tomato]

Small, portable anvils, like the Celts used, would be nice to see too, and would make sense if they had quality caps on them (for game balance, and despite the Celts being excellent metalsmiths.).

the best blacksmith in the world won't be able to forge a plate mail if he only has a very light (less than 50kg) anvil

IRL the anvil size caps the size of the items you're able to comfortably make

if you try to make a sword on a medium anvil (100kg) you'll overwork yourself, take a huge amount of time, but you'll be able to make it

with a big anvil (200+kg) you should be able to make the sword in less than half the time it took you to make it on medium one

that's why you see anvils sitting bolted to tree stumps  -- to add weight

as such, adding size caps on anvils is realistic and would be a welcomed (by me) addition

[Spey]

Composite weapon construction could be done in a simpler manner;

Sword: Haft/Blade (core metal) + Grip (optional; leather)
Spear: Haft (wood or metal) + tip (metal or stone)
Axe: Haft (wood or metal) + blade (metal)
Mace: Haft (wood, bone or metal) + Head (Optional, accounts for bone clubs/nightsticks; metal, stone)
Hammer: Haft (wood or metal) + Head (metal or stone)

That would work well, but composite weapons probably ought to wait until partial stacks are in place. Otherwise it makes making weapons very material-heavy. As it is having the handle of an obsidian short sword take up as much wood as an entire door is kinda silly. Although I suppose buckets and such have the same problem.

I look forward to a time when stacking is in, where when you smelt a lump of iron ore, you get a stack of bars that could be used in various numbers.

say you might smelt a lump of iron ore and get 23 bars of iron out of it (maybe miners skill determines how big a lump of ore you get, and smelters skill further determines bar output, with a bit of randomness thrown in)

now maybe you would need 20 bars to make an iron door, or 10 to make a breastplate, but only one bar needed for the tip of a spear etc.

this would be a bit more historically accurate really too, with low skilled miners/smelters, metal might be a little more sparse, so using it sparingly on weapons like spears, instead of pumping 5 bars worth or so into a sword would be much more economical

I also look forward to days where weapons are composites of their parts. stoneworkers fashioning speartips or axeheads out of flint (in the absence of metalworking) swords with gold inlays in the hilt etc. maybe materials used could have a bearing on the final product, ie a mace with a wooden haft might be more prone to breakage than one with a metal haft.

edit: also this shouldnt just extend to metal bars, im all for felled trees offering larger quantities of wood, perhaps in various forms, trunks could be fashioned into planks or blocks or similar larger items, while limbs might be fashioned into poles, hafts, handles and that sort of thing. both should also be capable of being split into 'snack size' logs for fuel burning or ash/charcoal creation.

infact you could probably go the whole hog if you wanted to, and even have a yeild of twigs that could be used for fashioning bolt or arrow shafts. this would all have to come back to stacking support though.

another edit: and i almost forgot, what about bark too, im sure there are a million uses for wood or tree based products. weaving baskets or fences, making cordage i could probably go on all day.

[Mel_Vixen]

another edit: and i almost forgot, what about bark too, im sure there are a million uses for wood or tree based products. weaving baskets or fences, making cordage i could probably go on all day.

To give a little overview the following trees (according to wikipedia) have medical use:

Willows, Lime, Birches, Oaks, Poplars, walnut, Hawthorn, sorbus, Mulberry, (Black) Elder, Common Broom, Quince, Ginko, (Yew) and Juniper.

That list is only for middleeurope.

No wonder that elves life for hundrets of years - they literally life in a drugstore.