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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items  (Read 3635861 times)

RandomNumberGenerator

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #14880 on: March 22, 2010, 12:15:18 pm »

That notion is false, I believe. You could make a custom workshop to create metal mechanisms, and even have it use the mechanics skill. They would be quality-less, but that doesn't matter unless you're using weapon traps, in which case, why are you using weapon traps? Wimp.  ;)

Is this true of the new version?  Will the custom workshops be able to produce items with qualities or not?

As far as I understand it, custom workshops do not have qualities.
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Aquillion

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #14881 on: March 22, 2010, 12:23:25 pm »

Magma is supposed to be nearly bottom-most layer, so in order to make use of magma features on typical embark, you will have to pierce potential aquifier and dig all the way down throught caverns. That pretty much requires you to have competent military to deal with new undergound critters, forgotten beasts and possibly clowns.
It's not going to be nearly that hard to get past the caverns.  Dig down; when you hit a cave, the area around the breach point will be exposed -- immediately rewall it and branch off from your downward staircase a bit above where you hit the caverns to go around them (or down through a large pillar of stone, or whatever.)

Also, normally when you breach a cavern, you'll breach the ceiling, so at least non-flying cave nasties will not be able to reach you.  Of course, there's various reasons why you might want to explore the cave's floor...  in that case you do have to take risks.  But simply evading the caves to get to the magma is not so difficult as all that.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2010, 12:25:26 pm by Aquillion »
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Askot Bokbondeler

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #14882 on: March 22, 2010, 12:40:08 pm »

or burn down a forest or two, are you an elf or what?

Cymsdale

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #14883 on: March 22, 2010, 01:11:09 pm »

I agree, however since sites generally* have these features, you don't need to search for them. So, restrict your site finder to biome, temperature and other sites you want to find, rather than resources which every site will likely* have.

(*always? we'll have to play to find out the probabilities here)

While you are guaranteed to have magma, you still might want look for magma pipe embark.

Magma is supposed to be nearly bottom-most layer, so in order to make use of magma features on typical embark, you will have to pierce potential aquifier and dig all the way down throught caverns. That pretty much requires you to have competent military to deal with new undergound critters, forgotten beasts and possibly clowns. Then, build pump stack if you want magma moat or have magma-powered workshops near surface or maintain metalworking outpost near bottom.

It is going to be worth it to have embark with surface accessible magma if you actually want use magma.

So, in other words, getting to magma will be a lot more fun.
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tfaal

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #14884 on: March 22, 2010, 01:17:52 pm »

So, in other words, getting to magma will be a lot more fun.
I agree entirely. This isn't a problem, this is the meat of the new game, right hear. This is what the goblins couldn't provide. This is what the orcs struggle to live up too. This is challenge. This is a fearsome foe guarding a valuable treasure. This is winning. And this is losing. But this is Dwarf Fortress. And this is Fun.

Now, I can understand if you want easy access to magma. If that's what you find fun, by all means, go ahead. But I don't. I'm embarking on a nice little mountain with a brook running through it, digging straight down, taming the underground level by level, and dealing with animal-man attacks as they come. If it's too difficult, I'll try again. If it's too easy, I'll give dwarves [SLOWLEARNER] and start over, because I'm questing for the blood of Armok himself, and it had damn well better be hard.
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I still think that the whole fortress should be flooded with magma the moment you try dividing by zero.
This could be a handy way of teaching preschool children mathematics.

GRead

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #14885 on: March 22, 2010, 01:36:04 pm »

For me, the key question is whether or not the magma will be limitless. While pools are enough for a smelting operation, if there are no pipes down there magma moats and other fun are out. So it's not about the ease of obtaining the magma. Legions of flaming clowns are !!Fun!!... but if it's just a series of magma pools down there, I may want to embark with a surface pipe anyway.
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tfaal

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #14886 on: March 22, 2010, 01:37:56 pm »

I believe that if there is a magma pool that extends off the edge of the map, it is taken to be infinite.
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I still think that the whole fortress should be flooded with magma the moment you try dividing by zero.
This could be a handy way of teaching preschool children mathematics.

Flaede

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #14887 on: March 22, 2010, 02:13:03 pm »

That notion is false, I believe. You could make a custom workshop to create metal mechanisms, and even have it use the mechanics skill. They would be quality-less, but that doesn't matter unless you're using weapon traps, in which case, why are you using weapon traps? Wimp.  ;)

In the current version you can have metal mechanisms, made in the forge, with qualitiy modifiers, so I'm not so sure I believe you. The only metal mechanism in vanilla is bright blue and rather valuable, but modders have allowed for others.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2010, 02:26:11 pm by Flaede »
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bombcar

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #14888 on: March 22, 2010, 02:17:47 pm »

Dwarves should give you a "hollow sound" warning when they get near a cave, etc, like they do with heat and dampness.

That would help prevent accidentally digging into a cave. Maybe make it an option that only the most skilled of miners would be able to do.
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HexagonalBolts

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #14889 on: March 22, 2010, 02:30:42 pm »

So, in other words, getting to magma will be a lot more fun.
I agree entirely. This isn't a problem, this is the meat of the new game, right hear. This is what the goblins couldn't provide. This is what the orcs struggle to live up too. This is challenge. This is a fearsome foe guarding a valuable treasure. This is winning. And this is losing. But this is Dwarf Fortress. And this is Fun.

Now, I can understand if you want easy access to magma. If that's what you find fun, by all means, go ahead. But I don't. I'm embarking on a nice little mountain with a brook running through it, digging straight down, taming the underground level by level, and dealing with animal-man attacks as they come. If it's too difficult, I'll try again. If it's too easy, I'll give dwarves [SLOWLEARNER] and start over, because I'm questing for the blood of Armok himself, and it had damn well better be hard.

Here here!

That's not to say that I'm not planning to just flood some of the caves I come to... Muhahah...
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Greiger

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #14890 on: March 22, 2010, 02:33:41 pm »

Am I the only one that thinks that whenever there is no devlog for a day that Toady is doing a final last push and is planning to release that day?
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Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #14891 on: March 22, 2010, 02:46:44 pm »

This I'm not sure about.  My guess is no, though -- contact area alone isn't enough to go on, since it doesn't tell you about the shape of the weapon (for example, a long thin string would be easy to hit with despite the very small contact area).
I wonder what happens if you mod in large-surfaced weapons, whether it'll realize that contact area should be the smaller of the creature and weapon, a flyswatter for instance. I don't THINK megabeasts are presently large enough to do this to dwarfs, but they certainly could to, say, rats.

One complication is that, no matter how big or small a creature is, a weapon will only make contact on one major body part (i.e. not SMALL/INTERNAL or whatever).  There's no notion of a full-body impact yet (aside from fall damage I guess).  But yeah, I was wondering about this too -- hopefully it at least does a min(x, y) thing.

It does condensate if it has boiling temp. But iirc. it condensates into globs or dust so you would be actually coated into dust not a solid material.

Nope, condensation doesn't occur at all, unfortunately:

Vapors don't condense around items or walls or anything, if I remember.  I don't think a liquid would even work here, since an item that lands in a square with spatter doesn't automatically gain that spatter as a contaminant.  It's pretty difficult to get a contaminant on an item right now if you don't jam them into something or have them around a combat in somebody's inventory where goop/blood is flying around.

Another question: Will we be able to make custom buildable items, like beds or doors, or are we just limited to workshops? Or can we just hack together a 1x1 workshop that tries to fill the same job as we wanted?

The "build items" for custom buildings can include anything that can be specified via reagent syntax (plus a few extra options), so you could create a bed building or door building.  However, it wouldn't actually function as a bed or door.  Reaction jobs are the main thing you can do with workshops, although I suppose you could also have a custom "wall" or "road" building.

It's possible that dwarves can admire items built into custom buildings, but I'm not sure.

Can Vermin still be produced by reactions or itemcorpses? (I'm actually guessing they can't...)

I don't see why that would have changed. Vermin should still be semi-items.

Yeah, you can still produce vermin that way.

Can creatures "secrete" vermin, as they might produce poison or another substance from their skin? (Worth asking but..)

Seems unlikely. We'll probably have to wait for "item breaths" for something like that.

Yup.  You can customize the materials used by secretions/breath, but not the item types (secretions are hardcoded to produce a material covering/spatter on the creature, breath uses material clouds or glob items).

The music thing has come up before.  I don't have a quote, but I do specifically remember him wanting to do more of it himself - and only himself.  It was a good while ago, so perhaps things have changed (there was, after all, the advent of the podcast music).  But it's probably safe to assume not unless we hear otherwise.

You remember correctly:

This is really something I like to do by myself.  I can't preview anything either, since it won't come together decently until the songs aare written.

For me, the key question is whether or not the magma will be limitless. While pools are enough for a smelting operation, if there are no pipes down there magma moats and other fun are out. So it's not about the ease of obtaining the magma. Legions of flaming clowns are !!Fun!!... but if it's just a series of magma pools down there, I may want to embark with a surface pipe anyway.

It's been heavily hinted that there are magma seas down below, ones that replenish from off-map.  Should be limitless enough for anyone.
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Name Lips

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #14892 on: March 22, 2010, 02:47:14 pm »

Am I the only one that thinks that whenever there is no devlog for a day that Toady is doing a final last push and is planning to release that day?
Don't get your hopes up until after some indication that Toady has done the merge. Code-merging can sometimes go badly...
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Name Lips

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #14893 on: March 22, 2010, 02:48:57 pm »

That notion is false, I believe. You could make a custom workshop to create metal mechanisms, and even have it use the mechanics skill. They would be quality-less, but that doesn't matter unless you're using weapon traps, in which case, why are you using weapon traps? Wimp.  ;)

In the current version you can have metal mechanisms, made in the forge, with qualitiy modifiers, so I'm not so sure I believe you. The only metal mechanism in vanilla is bright blue and rather valuable, but modders have allowed for others.
I thought the "bright blue" mechanisms were made from raw adamantine rock, and so were "rock" not metal. Just like making one out of Native Gold doesn't make it metal. It's still rock.
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Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #14894 on: March 22, 2010, 02:53:47 pm »

I've read that it's (likely/assured) that every single map will contain magma, but I can't seem to find anything relating to how that magma can be manipulated. Are Metal Mechanisms being added?

Found an answer for this while looking for info on adamantine mechanisms:

Quote from: Torham
Are there any plans to allow wood to be used for mechanisms for this release?

I haven't focused on mechanisms at all for this release, partly because it's doing well in voting and so will come up in its time.

The voting he mentioned is Eternal Suggestion Voting, in which "Improved Mechanics" stands at #5.  That's probably when we'll get metal mechanisms.
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