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[Sean Mirrsen]

How about just tracking matching organ patterns? See how well does the creature's BODY tag match that of yours, and derive a percentage.

One must ask: a percentage of what?  I think what you're envisioning is having one set of medical skills for pigs, and another set for dwarves, with a synergistic relationship whose strength depends on that percentage.  But those species-specific skills won't exist yet.

A percentage of the experience received. I thought that one was obvious.

Also, I think blind cave fish don't "see", they "feel" or "hear". Maybe it's time to get hearing organs linked to "extravision"? Like for bats, for instance.

[Footkerchief]

How about just tracking matching organ patterns? See how well does the creature's BODY tag match that of yours, and derive a percentage.

One must ask: a percentage of what?  I think what you're envisioning is having one set of medical skills for pigs, and another set for dwarves, with a synergistic relationship whose strength depends on that percentage.  But those species-specific skills won't exist yet.

A percentage of the experience received. I thought that one was obvious.

If you do it that way, how do they get better at operating on pigs?  A dwarf that's only operated on pigs should be better at operating on pigs than operating on dwarves.

[Genoraven]

I imagine they could practice basic skills. Like things that don't require a knowledge of specific anatomy. Like they could practice suturing wounds, setting bones, etc.

[Footkerchief]

I image they could practice basic skills. Like things that don't require a knowledge of specific anatomy. Like they could practice suturing wounds, setting bones, etc.

Yeah.  Of these skills...

Dressing wounds, diagnosis, surgery, setting bones, suturing and walking with crutches.

... it's probably only surgery and diagnosis that should be at all creature-specific.

[Greiger]

Yea I think what he's saying is just learning basic stuff like sewing a hole back up or setting a bone or something.  If I got in a horrible accident one day I would rather have a doctor operate on me than a vet.  But if there's no doctor around and I need somebody to sew me up now, I'll take the vet.

Vets are better at fixing up animals, but a vet still knows some general skills that would apply to any living mammal avian or reptile, that would make them a better choice than any old Urist HaulStones with a scalpel.  EDIT:Which could translate as skill points, but not as much as working on an actual dwarf.  Sorta like how archery targets train crossbow skill, but not as much as shooting at a live target does.  A pig would train some medical skill.  But not all of them, and not as fast as working on a wounded dwarf.

ninjad

[Sean Mirrsen]

Maybe he just gets additional experience in operating on animals in general? Medical science the way we know it is extremely specialized most of the time, but in a fantasy world like DF's, an elf surgeon and a dwarf surgeon would both be equally good at operating on humans or goblins, providing magic doesn't interfere (i.e. what is beneficial to elves is a poison to goblins, and vice versa).

Therefore, just one surgery skill will suffice. It determines how good you are as a general surgeon. Then, medical care and animal care provide the necessary difficulty modifiers when operating on humanoids or animals (including borderline cases).

(there was a lengthy post here, but I decided it was superfluous)

Basically, if Toady could pull off a quantum skill listing like DnD's Knowledge, you could get away with just the surgery skill. To clarify, this means that whenever the dwarf/any other person studies a creature, he receives a Knowledge skill with the handle to the creature slapped onto it, rather than a predetermined, hardcoded skill. I know, it's a difficult endeavor and a ways off. And the caravan arc is probably needed.

(and yeah, got triple-ninjad while writing the lengthy superfluous post

[SirPenguin]

In general, I'd say there are a lot of skills (perhaps all of them) that could benefit from a "generic" skill, similar to what Toady has added for combat (I believe he just called them Melee and Ranged, which are increased when a dwarf uses a melee/ranged skill and are added to combat rolls). The idea is that if you have two dwarves with 0 experience in wielding an axe, but one of them has used a sword before, the one with the sword experience should be better suited for combat because he at least knows how to use a weapon

Likewise, a healthcare skill group could benefit from a generic "Docterin'" skill which goes up whenever a healthcare skill is used. That way we could have a Vet dwarf who has a slight benefit when performing dwarven surgery, even if he has no skill points in "Surgery".

This could of course be expanded everywhere else fairly easily. A weaponsmith might not have any idea how to shape and craft armor, but he at least knows how to keep a forge going and how metals react to a hammer, and that should give him an edge over some soap maker.

[Groveller]

I image they could practice basic skills. Like things that don't require a knowledge of specific anatomy. Like they could practice suturing wounds, setting bones, etc.

Yeah.  Of these skills...

Dressing wounds, diagnosis, surgery, setting bones, suturing and walking with crutches.

... it's probably only surgery and diagnosis that should be at all creature-specific.

Maybe walking with crutches, too.

[lordcooper]

In general, I'd say there are a lot of skills (perhaps all of them) that could benefit from a "generic" skill, similar to what Toady has added for combat (I believe he just called them Melee and Ranged, which are increased when a dwarf uses a melee/ranged skill and are added to combat rolls). The idea is that if you have two dwarves with 0 experience in wielding an axe, but one of them has used a sword before, the one with the sword experience should be better suited for combat because he at least knows how to use a weapon

Likewise, a healthcare skill group could benefit from a generic "Docterin'" skill which goes up whenever a healthcare skill is used. That way we could have a Vet dwarf who has a slight benefit when performing dwarven surgery, even if he has no skill points in "Surgery".

This could of course be expanded everywhere else fairly easily. A weaponsmith might not have any idea how to shape and craft armor, but he at least knows how to keep a forge going and how metals react to a hammer, and that should give him an edge over some soap maker.

I really like that actually.  Suggestion thread?

[Misterstone]

Will some beastmen types be edible by dwarves or humans?  After all, a cave fish man is basically just a giant cave fish with arms and legs... right?

yum yum

[Lordinquisitor]

The Forgotten beasts sound cool.. But will we be able to "see" their bodyparts somehow?

[SmileyMan]

Blind cave fish men, eh? Also, in case people were wondering - like me! - this is what the EXTRAVISION tag does:

"Creature can see regardless of whether it has working eyes."

Seems kinda unfair those jerk blind cave fish men can see me while being blind.

I guess it's a shortcut for the kind of non-visual spatial perception that plenty of animals have (including humans, e.g. auditory).  Elephantfish have incredible electrosensitive systems (which we don't understand much) that allow them to "see" in murky water using an electric field.

It would be nice for all the sensory organs to make up a general "perception of the world," that could be diminished by destroying/damaging the relevant organ - and for surviving victims to develop alternative senses as compensation (e.g. a blinded dwarf should develop better hearing-awareness, and an electrosensory-deprived elephantfishman should develop better eyesight...) but that's a lot to simulate.

I've played with a blind adventurer before, who could sense the immediate surroundings (presumably a simulation of touch) and i'm sure could also detect the footsteps of nearby creatures although my memory's a bit hazy there.

[SirPenguin]

In general, I'd say there are a lot of skills (perhaps all of them) that could benefit from a "generic" skill, similar to what Toady has added for combat (I believe he just called them Melee and Ranged, which are increased when a dwarf uses a melee/ranged skill and are added to combat rolls). The idea is that if you have two dwarves with 0 experience in wielding an axe, but one of them has used a sword before, the one with the sword experience should be better suited for combat because he at least knows how to use a weapon

Likewise, a healthcare skill group could benefit from a generic "Docterin'" skill which goes up whenever a healthcare skill is used. That way we could have a Vet dwarf who has a slight benefit when performing dwarven surgery, even if he has no skill points in "Surgery".

This could of course be expanded everywhere else fairly easily. A weaponsmith might not have any idea how to shape and craft armor, but he at least knows how to keep a forge going and how metals react to a hammer, and that should give him an edge over some soap maker.

I really like that actually.  Suggestion thread?

I imagine it's an idea Toady has definitely thought about - he's pretty big into making frameworks he can later use elsewhere. I'm sure that in due time we'll see a system like that.

It's really the best of both worlds when it comes to simulation vs. gameplay. Though it does make sense that Farming, Plant Gathering, Milking, and Milling would all be separate skills, most video games would abstract that all away and simply call it "Farming", assuming that anyone running a farm would probably know how to do any number of those things as part of their profession. However, while grouping them together makes it easier to understand and simplifies professions, it does take away heavily from the simulation aspect.

By adding a generic skill you could have both. Some players might just want to activate the "Farming" generic skill which would allow the dwarf in question to perform any number of Farming tasks. They of course would not be nearly as skilled as a dwarf that specializes in only farming or only milling, but they would be increasing their Farming generic skill which would mean they wouldn't be totally useless when performing those skills.

An advanced player of course would still be able to doll out specific skills.

man, it never hit me how cool this idea is until just now. It's such an obvious solution for a lot of little labor issues. Maybe I will make that Suggestions topic, just so we can continue this conversation in a more appropriate spot.

[Footkerchief]

Will some beastmen types be edible by dwarves or humans?  After all, a cave fish man is basically just a giant cave fish with arms and legs... right?

The current animal peoples, even the underground ones (c.f. the cave swallowman), tend to have "sentient" tags like CAN_LEARN and CAN_SPEAK.  You can expect this trend to continue in the next version.  Butchering them would be at odds with dwarves' [ETHIC:EAT_SAPIENT_OTHER:UNTHINKABLE].

The Forgotten beasts sound cool.. But will we be able to "see" their bodyparts somehow?

Creatures now have a DESCRIPTION tag which gives you some basic info about them.  For example, the fluffy wambler (raws here) now has this description: "A fluffy, pudge-filled being, known for its warm heart and stumble bumblings."  And you'll be able to view their bodyparts via the wound screen, just like in the current version.

[Protactinium]

It's really the best of both worlds when it comes to simulation vs. gameplay. Though it does make sense that Farming, Plant Gathering, Milking, and Milling would all be separate skills, most video games would abstract that all away and simply call it "Farming", assuming that anyone running a farm would probably know how to do any number of those things as part of their profession. However, while grouping them together makes it easier to understand and simplifies professions, it does take away heavily from the simulation aspect.

By adding a generic skill you could have both. Some players might just want to activate the "Farming" generic skill which would allow the dwarf in question to perform any number of Farming tasks. They of course would not be nearly as skilled as a dwarf that specializes in only farming or only milling, but they would be increasing their Farming generic skill which would mean they wouldn't be totally useless when performing those skills.

This is also already conceived in idea for us partly in the Profession designations of our dwarves. That is to say, Engravers and Masons are both Stoneworkers, Stone/Wood/Metalcrafters and more are all labeled Craftsdwarves, Animal Trappers, Hunters, Animal Trainers are all Rangers, etcetera. I was going to go on and say some ways to smoothly implement, but I think maybe you should just create a Suggestion thread and link us from here.