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[jfs]

I remember Toady mentioning something about a forgotten underground temple, I'm not sure if he has added it though. So here's my question:

Will we have other, special things underground in addition to the three cavern layers and possible new HFS? Stuff like treasure, forgotten cities etc?

All of that qualifies a potential hidden fun stuff. Even if it's there I'm pretty sure Toady won't reveal it beforehand.

[Acanthus117]

I have a question.

Will it ever be possible to do missions where you don't kill your mark, but bring them in to your employer. It would be cool if you could even be a childsnatcher! Imagine bringing around a rope and cuffs, hunting for the goblin raised dorf Urist the Kid, wanted in over 40 civs for murder, babysnatching and general evil-ness! That would be fun.

[Halmie]

I remember Toady mentioning something about a forgotten underground temple, I'm not sure if he has added it though. So here's my question:

Will we have other, special things underground in addition to the three cavern layers and possible new HFS? Stuff like treasure, forgotten cities etc?

All of that qualifies a potential hidden fun stuff. Even if it's there I'm pretty sure Toady won't reveal it beforehand.

And shouldn't. People don't spoiler things and earlier

Spoiler: NewVersionSpoiler (click to show/hide)

Forgotten Beasts

were spoilt for me.

[Footkerchief]

I have a question.

Will it ever be possible to do missions where you don't kill your mark, but bring them in to your employer. It would be cool if you could even be a childsnatcher! Imagine bringing around a rope and cuffs, hunting for the goblin raised dorf Urist the Kid, wanted in over 40 civs for murder, babysnatching and general evil-ness! That would be fun.

Yes, there are some dev goals about bounty hunting etc, and we might even see such quests in the near future, since as quests go it's straightforward to implement:

# PowerGoal101, SHAVED EVIL, (Future): Venturing to the evil town of Blackport on the Sea of Annihilation, you call forth the Lord of Darkness. You have his pet ratman, which you have shaved. The ratman takes a few steps and turns to you. You hold up your knife. The ratman holds its hands over its head and scampers to its master.

I remember Toady mentioning something about a forgotten underground temple, I'm not sure if he has added it though. So here's my question:

Will we have other, special things underground in addition to the three cavern layers and possible new HFS? Stuff like treasure, forgotten cities etc?

It's come up a couple times, and the message has been that it's something that's going in later, hopefully with good reasons for it to be there (e.g. an advanced underground civilization):

Toady:   That's the kind of thing where we're eventually going to need to bring in some more of this fantasy crap, right like utter crap, like 'here's a big buried underground temple with some ghosts and stuff and it's got golden swords and giant chests' and it's just there. It would be preferable to have reasons for it to be there but there are plenty of reasons you can come up with, right? So it's not like it's breaking the fact that we have this holistic world thing going on if we throw in some crap, as long as the crap has a reason to be there; and it would make it more fun to dig underground. But right now it still has a sort of naturalistic type of feel to it where there's ... it's like new biomes and things; there's not a lot of super-weird - unless you count a [CENSORED FOR SPOILERS] as super weird, which you probably should - there's not a lot of super-weird stuff down there in terms of forgotten civilised stuff. We're not against that by any means, it's just harder to add.

I don't think it's crucial to have dungeon-type locations that are left behind with level-graded treasures scattered properly or something like that (the pyramid ruins were like that -- it hid the best stuff deeper in).  If there are dungeons, they'd be either abandoned or occupied, created in world gen or during play by the sort of critters that would have a dungeon (like a dwarf fortress).  Game-wise, it would certainly be better to have the old 3D zombie ruins from before than nothing, but hopefully we can do better than that.  Ideally, every explorable adventure location that you find would have a real reason for being there, linked in with the world history and everything else.  There are plenty of ways for that to still involve interesting things to find laying around, though places that would have been looted by whoever sacked them and so on should probably be looted.

will adv mode zombie ruins return?

Zombie ruins are fun, I just need them to come up for some reason.  Which isn't so hard.  But I haven't done it yet.  There's a core item for it if I remember.

[smjjames]

carp-like from the top of moat by a gigantic beast.

Hmm, giant mutant cave carp, an aquatic megabeast, or something new entirely?

LOL on the shaved ratman though.

[Lancensis]

An aquatic megabeast doesn't seem very likely, since they're roamers. But semimegabeasts are usually sedentary and since there'll be water in the cave systems, you could well have cave krakkens or leviathans.

I wonder what yesterdays "fun new things down below" was. Hopefully a tar pit...

[Micro102]

I've faced a type of aquatic megabeast before. Imagine a river bent in a circular way to completly surrond your starting area, now imagine it being filled with over 100 carp, now imagine the carp are zombies.....I didn't last long enough to get a wall up 

[monkeyfetus]

[UNDER_PRESSURE] is only on the guts though, so the distinction will only matter for mods at this point.  Any pop-out will currently cause the two '~' to follow you around, even if the modded part is small.

It should also cause you to be followed around by a rockin' bassline.

Ice, ice, b...  wait...

I see what you did there. 

[Shoku]

Nitpicking ahoy! (spoilered for off-topicness)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

A stone golem heated to stone-melting temperatures will have more mass than a stone-cold stone golem. Because energy has mass, and molten rock has more stored energy than just a rock.

I thought you might have been talking about stored or potential energy, but wasn't sure exactly.

Let's assume your stone golem is a sphere of hard granite with a diameter of 10 metres (ridiculously big). That's 524 cubic metres of stone, with a mass of 1220 tons. The energy needed to completely melt those 1220 tons of granite is approximately 3.22e12 joules (3.22 TJ), equivalent to 3.58e-5 g (0.358 µg).

Infinitesimal or not, if it's greater and not equal, it's more mass.

Bullcarp. Can you provide a mass figure for rock golems accurate to fractions of micrograms? Thought not. The above difference means nothing. The difference between individua golems is likely to be orders of magnitude greater.

Further nitpicking.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

By my research, granite melts (technically it's a mixture, and partially melts, but this is the temperature of granite magmas) at 1533 degrees Kelvin. It has a density of 2.75 grams per cubic centimetre, and a specific heat capacity of 7.90e2 joules per kilogram Kelvin. So a 10 metre diameter golem has the volume you said, of 5.24e8 cubic centimetres and hence a mass of 1.44e6 kilograms. I couldn't find information about the enthalpy of fusion (extra energy required to melt a substance of the right temperature) of granite, so I assumed it was the same as water, 3.34e5 Joules per kilogram (it isn't - water has a ridiculously high enthalpy of fusion because of the hydrogen bonds between molecules, and granite only partially melts). This gives us 1.75e12 Joules for the heating to melting point and an exaggerated 4.81e11 Joules for the melting itself, for a total of 2.22e12 Joules. Mass-energy equivalence still only gives us 2.47e-5 kilograms (kilograms are the SI unit, not grams), or 1.72e-9 percent of the total mass.

Short version: for the temperature of the golem to be at all relevant to mass calculations, you would have to have an extremely precise mass measurement device, far more accurate than anything that will exist in the next few centuries.

And, since heating a substance (generally) causes it to expand, and we know the pressure on the surface of the golem must be normal air pressure, a magma golem will way significantly less than a golem of the same, non-molten stone. Either that or it will be much, much larger.

You didn't do any math to show what fraction of that energy actually becomes mass though. We only get significant contributions to mass in conditions like moving 90% of the speed of light (in which case we're getting mass instead of velocity changes.)

Wait, does temperature itself even ever contribute mass?

I've faced a type of aquatic megabeast before. Imagine a river bent in a circular way to completly surrond your starting area, now imagine it being filled with over 100 carp, now imagine the carp are zombies.....I didn't last long enough to get a wall up 

That's just some difficult FUN, not really that megabeastly.

[G-Flex]

I think it's amusing that people are talking about something as absurdly precise as mass fluctuation through temperature, yet are completely ignoring the fact that the same substance tends to have different densities in liquid and solid phases anyway. Sometimes significantly.

[decius]

http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=47532.msg1021986#msg1021986 Moved
I for one welcome our new aquatic cave-dwelling *semimegabeast liver roasts*

[smjjames]

An aquatic megabeast doesn't seem very likely, since they're roamers. But semimegabeasts are usually sedentary and since there'll be water in the cave systems, you could well have cave krakkens or leviathans.

Don't forget, we're suppoused to have huge UG lakes, so an aquatic megabeast can still roam inside a huge UG lake that goes off your embark site. Should I mention that maroon furred shrimp titan that Toady said about when he was talking about megabeasts months ago, it was around the same time the round shelled blob was mentioned.

[QuakeIV]

Happy birthday scamps! 

[sweitx]

I think it's amusing that people are talking about something as absurdly precise as mass fluctuation through temperature, yet are completely ignoring the fact that the same substance tends to have different densities in liquid and solid phases anyway. Sometimes significantly.

No, what's amusing is the fact that there's a discussion of how mass-energy relativity applies to a game set in fantasy world.

[G-Flex]

Hey now, it would if dwarven alchemists started enriching uranium and giving it to the mechanics for their new detonation mechanisms.