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[Outcast Orange]

I can smell the sun rising.
It smells of new version.

This'll probably come out the weekend I'm supposed on "vacation".
I hope I don't miss the big release.

[tfaal]

About custom workshops: If I were to remove the key bindings for all the vanilla workshops, then replace them with equivalent custom workshops, what side effects would there be? Are there any workshops that can't be meaningfully replaced with custom ones?

[Cruxador]

About custom workshops: If I were to remove the key bindings for all the vanilla workshops, then replace them with equivalent custom workshops, what side effects would there be? Are there any workshops that can't be meaningfully replaced with custom ones?

Nothing checks for power, so a mill wouldn't work. I don't think things check for magma either, but I could be wrong there.

[Footkerchief]

About custom workshops: If I were to remove the key bindings for all the vanilla workshops, then replace them with equivalent custom workshops, what side effects would there be? Are there any workshops that can't be meaningfully replaced with custom ones?

It sounds like there may be a more direct way of disabling vanilla workshops than remapping keys:

Also, will there be completely no way to get rid of the standard workshops? Would it at least be possible to remap the keys so that the custom workshops can be built instead?

It can be done building by building for this release provided you don't care about the implications (ie, they'd still have access to certain products), but at least it would clear up interface clutter.  In that case, the keys would work properly.  That is, right now custom workshops can be assigned keys, but they shouldn't conflict with other keys that appear in the list of allowed buildings for that menu option (workshops, furnaces, etc.).

However, yeah, you will quickly run into some major side effects.  Reactions cannot:
- produce items with a quality other than "basic"
- handle decorations, bucket handles, or cloth's thing where thread/dye act like components
- produce multiple items in exactly the same way the "Make Crafts" jobs do
- use arbitrary reagents in containers (may or may not prevent glassmaking, depending on whether Toady added support for a CONTAINS_SAND tag)
- give you a nice hierarchical menu like you get at the forge (it'll just be one giant list with "Make iron short sword," "Make bronze short sword" etc.)
- produce a stack whose size is the sum of the sizes of the reagent stacks (like the kitchen does)

Nothing checks for power, so a mill wouldn't work. I don't think things check for magma either, but I could be wrong there.

"You can also ... set custom workshops to be magma-fueled."  But yeah, power doesn't work.

[jamoecw]

What exactly do the impact/shear yield/fracture/elasticity in the material raws do?

The impact stuff had to do with blunt stuff and the shear stuff had to do with cutting stuff (which makes sense), according to an old raw preview, but it didn't go into detail.

I missed this question yesterday, but here's a bunch of quotes that go into much more detail:

Spoiler: long (click to show/hide)

http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=21498.msg368028;topicseen#msg368028

Does bludgeoning damage transfer?  (AKA is unlikely to do damage to skin or fat but will bruise muscle and break bone)

Yeah, though it's sort of cludged since there's a lot going on and I wasn't quite wrapping my head around everything.  Right now it'll check the impact elasticity (which I guess is actually impact yield strain or something) of the outer layer, and that'll let it bypass impact fracture after a certain point (while still allowing bruises and ruptures without the layer eg skin actually breaking) even if the force is high enough (as the layer is assumed to have made way for the moving object in a sense).  So if you make a michelin man style creature that's just a purely elastic material, a mace will be unable to harm it unless it has blood flow and can bruise and so on, while relatively inelastic materials like bone will fracture, even through skin.  Skin has a lesser shear fracture than bone on the other hand, so a knife will cut through skin more easily than bone.

So we'll also have armor acting like a pseudo tissue layer for purposes of transmitting bludgeoning damage and so forth?

If an iron sword strikes some steel plate armour and fails to penetrate it, and the damage is converted to bludgeoning (AKA the force of the blow is spread out over the plate), will bludgeoning damage be inflicted to the creature beneath the armour?

Additionally, if we're talking about a steel-skinned creature (Giant Magma Ants?) instead of a steel-armoured creature, is the force transfer handled differently?

Yeah, that's basically how it works.  The armor is all checked in order from outer to inner, then it gets at the tissue layers, altering the character of the attack as it goes.  There's a little left to do there, so it's not completely clear to me which way it'll go as far as how much force is transferred (or if it matters if it's skin or armor -- it doesn't currently, though yeah, there is a difference in real life).  It has to be enough that skin doesn't stop bones from being broken, but not so much that armor is useless against impacts, depending on the mats and nature of the armor/clothing.

Obviously, from what you've said, it will be difficult to cut through, say, steel with iron. But HOW difficult?

I've only whacked the poor dwarf with the hammer.  Haven't tested armor yet, and all of this is very number dependent.  Ideally, there would be a point to upgrading equipment without making the prior equipment worthless.  A softer material can break a harder one with impact force currently if it's swung hard enough, but it would suffer itself in the process (though not so much if it is against something that just isn't as massive as it is).  There's a sort of mid-range spot I'm missing right now with wedge effects (like a dull axe), but I'll get at that at some point -- I have a contact area variable in the attack definitions that should make the pressure increase, but there are many things to balance.  There's a sweet spot we'll find eventually as long as everything is placed correctly.  Skill is probably still going to be the most important thing, unless you've got really really tragic atts or something (you can't be strength 0 unless you wait for your atts to rust for a long, long time, but if you theoretically did get down there, you wouldn't be able to cause any damage at all).

How do the strength values for metals interact with their effectiveness as weapons and armor?

Currently shear yield/fracture is used to determine edge effectiveness and the effectiveness of a material against a cut.  Impact yield/fracture is used to determine resistance against impacts.  Solid density will increase weight and therefore the impact of attacks.

Does it figure out a sense of dimension for bodyparts like limbs and extremities, or is it just a matter of part size?

It sounds like bludgeoning damage hasn't been merged with slash/pierce, even though contact areas are being tracked now.  Is it being kept separate just for combat text purposes or something?

Well, there's contact areas and contact areas, he he he, and edges are assumed to be at a small enough scale that my numbers don't resolve well there.  Edges move partially over to different calculations, using the shear value differences and their "edge" numbers without worrying so much about the particulars of the vanishingly small surface area of the slice, whereas bludgeoning weapons use the overall contact areas and do more actual pushing around in a more straightforward way.  It's sort of crappy and cobbled together, but hopefully it'll work out.  The edges still keep track generally of how much they are slicing through and how much momentum is behind them, so slashes are different from thrusts in that respect.  There's nothing here that wouldn't make an engineer vomit though.

In general, I don't have enough dimension information to do a really good simulation.  Critters parts have weird shapes, so I haven't fussed that much.  It oftentimes conflates total surface areas, volumes and depths, in ways that don't necessarily scale realistically, but it's not like I can do much about what these things look like.  As long as the results are good over the range of sizes and actions in the game, it doesn't matter as much, but some extra raw variables will probably come in over time as problems arise.

What will the functional difference between a war hammer and a mace be in the new combat system aside from using a different skill?

Yeah, the difference I've got right now is the contact area.  So a mace will have larger wound areas but won't concentrate the force as much.  It may be that this indicates one weapon is superior to the other in most normal applications, but I haven't had a chance to test that sort of thing carefully. 

The other mechanical properties apparently come up in wrestling, but there haven't been many details about that:

Are you going to give us details about how all the numbers work in the raw files?

There are some details in the material template preview.

As a note, some of those "unused" ones have uses now -- all of the things like compressive/tensile/bending/torsion get used during wrestling, but that's about it I think.  They are around if we need them now though (not that it was easy to find any numbers, so most of the numbers are copies of ones I found for other materials or types of force...)

thanks, i thought that hardness was a factor, i was just too lazy to look it up.

[Sean Mirrsen]

About custom workshops: If I were to remove the key bindings for all the vanilla workshops, then replace them with equivalent custom workshops, what side effects would there be? Are there any workshops that can't be meaningfully replaced with custom ones?

So, in light of all of the above, you can't completely replace anything except the smelter until at least the reactions can produce high-quality items. Once there, you can partially replace the forges, the alchemy shop (sans vials), the carpenter's and the mason's, the tannery, the still (we have barrel output, methinks), the siege workshop, the farmer's shop (though exactly how it'll handle various plants is a question), the kiln and the wood burner, the leatherworker's, aaaaaand... and I've forgotten if there are any others. We can't fully replace the clothesmaker's because of the dye, we can't have the craftsman's because of improvements, and no kitchen or butchery/fishery due to various problems involved. No kennel as well, for the same reason. So, gaining item quality on reaction output is currently the #1 suggestion from me.

[Footkerchief]

So, in light of all of the above, you can't completely replace anything except the smelter until at least the reactions can produce high-quality items. Once there, you can partially replace the forges, the alchemy shop (sans vials), the carpenter's and the mason's, the tannery, the still (we have barrel output, methinks), the siege workshop, the farmer's shop (though exactly how it'll handle various plants is a question), the kiln and the wood burner, the leatherworker's, aaaaaand... and I've forgotten if there are any others.

The kiln, wood furnace, and tannery should be replaceable already -- the material template for skin even includes a MATERIAL_REACTION_PRODUCT to facilitate the (presumed) new tanning reaction.  The alchemist's shop would be replaceable too, if it weren't being removed in favor of the new soapmaker's shop in the building raws.  The glass vials are just a building requirement, and custom workshops can handle those.

With the new custom workshops and the ability to add reactions to the Alchemist's shop, will you be adding the Alchemy skill back in?

The alchemist's workshop is nuked, but you can add your own.  The alchemy skill is still there for you to play with, though it isn't used by any of the default stuff.

Here's the soap maker's shop I'm currently using:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

building_custom

[OBJECT:BUILDING]

[BUILDING_WORKSHOP:SOAP_MAKER]
[NAME:Soap Maker's Workshop]
[NAME_COLOR:7:0:1]
[DIM:3:3]
[WORK_LOCATION:2:2]
[BUILD_LABOR:SOAP_MAKER]
[BUILD_KEY:CUSTOM_SHIFT_S]
[BLOCK:1:0:0:0]
[BLOCK:2:0:0:0]
[BLOCK:3:0:0:0]
[TILE:0:1:' ':' ':150]
[TILE:0:2:' ':' ':'/']
[TILE:0:3:'-':' ':' ']
[COLOR:0:1:0:0:0:0:0:0:6:0:0]
[COLOR:0:2:0:0:0:0:0:0:6:0:0]
[COLOR:0:3:6:0:0:0:0:0:0:0:0]
[TILE:1:1:' ':' ':'=']
[TILE:1:2:'-':' ':8]
[TILE:1:3:' ':' ':150]
[COLOR:1:1:0:0:0:0:0:0:6:0:0]
[COLOR:1:2:6:0:0:0:0:0:6:0:0]
[COLOR:1:3:0:0:0:0:0:0:6:0:0]
[TILE:2:1:'-':' ':8]
[TILE:2:2:' ':' ':8]
[TILE:2:3:' ':150:' ']
[COLOR:2:1:6:0:0:0:0:0:6:0:0]
[COLOR:2:2:0:0:0:0:0:0:6:0:0]
[COLOR:2:3:0:0:0:6:0:0:0:0:0]
[TILE:3:1:150:' ':8]
[TILE:3:2:' ':' ':8]
[TILE:3:3:' ':240:' ']
[COLOR:3:1:6:0:0:0:0:0:6:7:0]
[COLOR:3:2:0:0:0:0:0:0:6:7:0]
[COLOR:3:3:0:0:0:7:0:1:0:0:0]
[BUILD_ITEM:1:BUCKET:NONE:NONE:NONE][EMPTY][CAN_USE_ARTIFACT]
[BUILD_ITEM:1:NONE:NONE:NONE:NONE][BUILDMAT][WORTHLESS_STONE_ONLY][CAN_USE_ARTIFACT]

in the reaction file

[REACTION:MAKE_SOAP]
[NAME:make soap]
[BUILDING:SOAP_MAKER:CUSTOM_S]
[REAGENT:A:1:BARREL:NONE:NONE:NONE][CONTAINS_LYE]
[REAGENT:B:1:GLOB:NONE:NONE:NONE][REACTION_CLASS:RENDERED_FAT][UNROTTEN]
[HAS_MATERIAL_REACTION_PRODUCT:SOAP_MAT]
[PRODUCT:100:1:GLOB:NONE:GET_MATERIAL_FROM_REAGENT:B:SOAP_MAT]
[SKILL:SOAP_MAKING]


I don't remember if I tested this specific reaction or not.

[Deon]

Apparently when critters came wet out of the water and attacked people, some of the water transferred over and cleaned off other spatter on their victims' inventories

Who needs soap? I WILL CLEAN MY DWARVES WITH CAVE ALLIGATORS!!!

[Shoku]

Apparently when critters came wet out of the water and attacked people, some of the water transferred over and cleaned off other spatter on their victims' inventories

Who needs soap? I WILL CLEAN MY DWARVES WITH CAVE ALLIGATORS!!!

Methinks they won't lather up in the beard very well but I guess that's not an issue

[smjjames]

Zach's glacier tiles disappeared as he dug staircases

Looks like ThreeToe ran into the void tile bug. Glacier/ice tiles are known to act strange.

[Shoku]

so he ended up taking apart his wagon to build a staircase down to the rock.

But if it was the same way as usual they would disappear when he tried to place the second down staircase so he'd both have a miner sitting in a pit and unbroken ground where he tried to place down stairs. Some up stairs next to it and a new pair of down stairs where he originally tried to place them wouldn't require building any stairs.

Probably still related but definitely different than before.

[tfaal]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

in the reaction file

[REACTION:MAKE_SOAP]
[NAME:make soap]
[BUILDING:SOAP_MAKER:CUSTOM_S]
[REAGENT:A:1:BARREL:NONE:NONE:NONE][CONTAINS_LYE]
[REAGENT:B:1:GLOB:NONE:NONE:NONE][REACTION_CLASS:RENDERED_FAT][UNROTTEN]
[HAS_MATERIAL_REACTION_PRODUCT:SOAP_MAT]
[PRODUCT:100:1:GLOB:NONE:GET_MATERIAL_FROM_REAGENT:B:SOAP_MAT]
[SKILL:SOAP_MAKING]


I don't remember if I tested this specific reaction or not.

That [CUSTOM_S] argument would be redundant if only custom workshops could get new reactions. Does that mean that we'll be able to add new reactions for the vanilla workshops as well?

[Reese]

So, Dev_now updated!

dogs and cats running around with random floating fingers... I wonder if this lovely bug is related to the 'cat bug' fix, or remnants in the raws of the hackish fix we've all been using.

Too bad it's being fixed, I can think of a few creatures that had floating, disembodied heads or hands that could have been created using that.

[Mephansteras]

Sounds like it was just an error when he was setting up the new raws.

I like all the stories of various bugs that are being found and fixed. They make for good reading.

[smjjames]

The 'certain unsolid creatures' part interests me however.

The only 'unsolid' creatures (apart from vermin which exist in a wierd state atm) in the current version are Magmamen, SOF, and Firemen. I know theres the slimes or whatever in the Dig Deeper mod, but even those aren't truly 'unsolid'.

Firemen, conceptually, are made of some wierd plasma and in the new release, and I THINK its possible to make them gaseous somehow. So, they are out, magmamen are likely but I think he would have said magmamen if it were them. So, there are either some new 'normal' critters like slimes. Theres also the forgotten ones and the new demon stuff, remember the round shelled blob of goo and the mass of vomit in a vague shape of a frog?

Gelatinous might have been a better word here than 'unsolid'.