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[Neonivek]

I think he is comparing hobbyists to professionals so to speak.

It isn't surprising that modern day's immitation of medieval armor isn't as good, afterall it wasn't actually made for combat.

[darkflagrance]

Most people vastly underestimate the quality of medieval metalworking. Medieval blacksmiths were far superior to their modern day counterparts, we've lost most of the old techniques because we just plain don't need them anymore.

Somewhere I can read about this?

This is probably one of those things that people won't write about because they're perceived as too niche/obvious to be interesting.

Best to contact someone who makes armor for a living. Although, I myself have participated in Renaissance fair type events, and I can say from personal experience that modern 'smiths' only approximate old armor with modern materials.

Plus, given that in the past the blacksmith would probably pass his best techniques down to his apprentices only to preserve his monopoly on his skills, and there would be no reason for the apprentices to pass these on if they went out of work...

[Chthonic]

This is probably one of those things that people won't write about because they're perceived as too niche/obvious to be interesting.

If there's knowledge, then someone will have written it somewhere, especially since there is a large population intensely interested in all things medieval.

[Aqizzar]

Most people vastly underestimate the quality of medieval metalworking. Medieval blacksmiths were far superior to their modern day counterparts, we've lost most of the old techniques because we just plain don't need them anymore.

Yeah, uh, nooooo.  There is absolutely nothing that medieval blacksmith knew about material science that modern chemists and metallurgists don't.  Boeing and NASA know more about metal than every swordsmith from 1900 to the beginning of time combined.  God I hate this "the past was so much more awesome than we are!" bullcrap.

[Lord Shonus]

I think what he means is something like the fact that many Stone Age flintworking techniques are lost because technology moved on, so that somebody attempting to make tools using Stone Age tech would turn out vastly inferior pieces because the methodology died out.

[GlyphGryph]

A similiar thing happened to the various medieval martial arts. Unbelievable as it is, almost none of the major schools wrote anything down if they could help it, and much of what they DID write down was so heavily coded and reliant on there being a teacher there to help you understand it that we just can't decipher it accurately.

Now, I'm no expert, I don't know for sure if its true. But I find it very conceivable there many blacksmithing techniques lost just because there not much used any more and no one was inclined to pass them on when they retired. Yeah, materials wise and armor wise, we can do better - a number of types of modern body armor is superior to the medieval stuff in effectiveness against melee weapons. But that doesn't mean current-day blacksmiths making reproductions are near the level of the masters from an era where it actually mattered.

FAKE EDIT: Yeah, basically as above. Its the specific techniques for the limited materials, not the basic science.

[Reese]

my vast experience with medieval armoring (a special I watched on medieval armor technology on discovery or history) had them examining the structure of an old breastplate and then using a mix of old and new techniques to replicate the layered structure found in the breastplate... and they discovered that the layered construction made the plate more resistant to bullets from the era the plate was from than just a solid piece of armor using the same amount of metal.

So, yeah, smiths back in the day did develop techniques for armor creation to keep pace with weapon technology (up until, you know, the benefits of bullet stopping were outweighed by the weight of the armor)  For whatever else they were, they were certainly not dumb.

Since there was a long period where armor was considered useless, all those smiths who didn't have apprentices to pass their knowledge on to didn't.  This has always been a problem with a master/apprentice systems and keeping of trade secrets.

[KaelGotDwarves]

Yeah, hate to break it to some of you, but current knowledge of metal properties can yield many times more strong weapons and armor (and lighter) than in the past.

It's the same as supposedly super-secret samurai sword knowledge and tales of swords which were folded and reforged thousands of times for strength.

The truth is, back then metal was scarce and shit in Japan, so much work had to be done to make a decent sword. Hence the craftsmanship.

Nowadays if you really wanted, you can pump out a battle ready sword from molds and have it be stronger than old weapons, but where's the fun and artistry in that? It makes for a terrible story.

Learning swordplay nowadays isn't for killing, it's for self-fulfillment, the same as collecting old weapons. Modern studies of all sorts of swordsplay would (and do in fencing) create swordsmen who are also much better than their ancient counterparts, but that's not our main method of killing people anymore.

[Neonivek]

Most people vastly underestimate the quality of medieval metalworking. Medieval blacksmiths were far superior to their modern day counterparts, we've lost most of the old techniques because we just plain don't need them anymore.

Yeah, uh, nooooo.  There is absolutely nothing that medieval blacksmith knew about material science that modern chemists and metallurgists don't.  Boeing and NASA know more about metal than every swordsmith from 1900 to the beginning of time combined.  God I hate this "the past was so much more awesome than we are!" bullcrap.

I think if I were trying to be as accurate as I could Id say this statement

"Medieval Blacksmiths were the best at what they did with the materials they had available. Skills that can no longer be replicated in modern times."

Afterall if scientists really tried I am sure they could make some sort of super-science metalic platemail that would put all medieval plates to shame. Though I am sure if you put those same scientists to work on a metalic platemail with a Anvil and hammer they wouldn't get too far.

Though to be truthful I wouldn't be surprised if there was a hobbyist somewhere who can replicate medieval armor in honest detail. Afterall replications are an important part of anthropology.

Also the Samurai Swords were impressive for their time (If excessively expencive). The difference is that they weren't eternally better for all time like some people are lead to believe.

[Untelligent]

Will both immigrants and the labor menu adhere to what professions an entity is allowed to have?

If I remember correctly, one of those two (immigrants?) doesn't work right in the current version and you can end up with dwarves (or whatever) that can be professions that shouldn't be available to them (if you've modded those professions out of the entity).

[thedrelle]

A great deal of the armor as we perceive it were mainly for display, and hindered maneuverability. Not to say that men of those times, who were a great deal stronger than a common soldier today, wouldn't make use of it, just that they fought in lighter, more maneuverable gear, and wore the really heavy stuff when on a horse, as then the weight was not as much an issue.

As for early-era blacksmiths, the skill level and abilities have only improved. however, with the onset of projectile weapons, armor became essentially useless, and when it was used, it only protected against lighter hand weapons. So smiths today do not put the cost and effort required to make armor as strong as it used to be, simply because no one's lives depend on it.

For instance, i know for a fact that certain baseball bats are now made with a "nanoalloy" essentially reducing the metal grain size and increasing the strength of the bat considerably, while also making the sidewall THINNER. lighter bat, stronger bat. sends the ball right out of the park.

essentially, when the way war was made changed, so did the need to make strong alloys for the armor.

[zchris13]

The argument here is not that we know more about metals.  We certainly do, but what we know we know about ALLOYS.  Not the actual smithing process, not the hammering and the folding.  Not that.  We know a lot more ABOUT it, but less how to do it.  I think.

[SirPenguin]

Given where Toady is in development I'd say we won't be seeing a new version until the beginning of February.

Merry Dwarfmas, everyone

[Skid]

There is more to making a sword than just making it strong, sharp, and unbreakable.  It has to be ergonomic and tactically suited to the kind of enemy you intend to stab with it.  These properties are created with completely different skills than you would probably find in your average material scientist today, but would be possessed by any weapon smith in medieval times worth his salt.

[zchris13]

Yeah.  If somebody actually got a bachelors in melee weapon design, I can see the point of people who claim that we can do what the metalsmiths used to do.