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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items  (Read 3575420 times)

zchris13

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6945 on: November 17, 2009, 04:46:05 pm »
Quote from: Toady One on November 16, 2009, 06:11:41 am
Quote from: zchris13
Have you determined the cause of the "dwarves run around naked" bug from the dev log 2 days ago?

Yeah, it wasn't sending an ownership notification to the function that dresses dwarves during embark (and the ownership was what ends up storing their initial civilian outfit), so they were like "What's this?  I specifically remember wanting to dress in nothing today!" and pitched them on the ground as extra worn objects, after failing to find a clothing stockpile by the wagon.
Thank you Toady. You're descriptions of what the code tells the dwarfs is just downright hilarious.  At least it tells you that the whole "ditch extra clothes" part of the code works.  Probably also going to help with that wrestling bug.
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KaelGotDwarves

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6946 on: November 17, 2009, 05:02:25 pm »
Hmm, where is the link to the new weapon raws in the next version? I know Toady linked us to examples but I can't find it now.
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Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6947 on: November 17, 2009, 05:08:32 pm »
Quote from: Igfig on November 17, 2009, 04:43:50 pm
Okay?  It doesn't matter what the actual names for things are.  You don't kill people with names.  We have numbers.  Numbers are what you kill people with.

I disagree on several levels.  First, the name is important because it's chosen to evoke a real-world object that fills in the large conceptual gaps left by the numbers.  Secondly, we're also arguing about classification here, the rationale for organizing and dividing the object types for which we use names as a symbol, and classification is important, especially in a computer program that relies on it.

Incidentally we could have been having this same argument about polearms.  Swords and axes are maybe less muddled, but there will always be a question of how coarsely the weapons should be lumped together.  I guess it would be cool if variants arose organically from the Platonic Forms of Melee Weapons or whatever, but that would basically toss the item type system out the window.

This has become a pretty egregious derail, yeah.  I blame Toady for posting weapon raws.

Speaking of those raws, and semantics aside, it's very cool that the game has greater versatility for complex weapons like halberds now.  I also liked how flails have a slightly higher velocity multiplier than morningstars.  I was a little surprised, though, that Toady went with the attack choice governed by the 1:100 thing instead of weighting it as an attack parameter.  Just a time thing I guess, and it'd still be a placeholder anyway.

Quote from: KaelGotDwarves on November 17, 2009, 05:02:25 pm
Hmm, where is the link to the new weapon raws in the next version? I know Toady linked us to examples but I can't find it now.

It was at the bottom of the big post above:

Quote from: Toady One on November 17, 2009, 10:06:34 am
Sure.  Here's what I've got so far.  Tentative as usual.  Training weapons should probably be a little heavier than their edged counterparts, since they are thicker.  (The "WEIGHT" is actually a volume, still have to change that, and probably to mm^3 like the others, thought those numbers would be some of the worst guesses ever made).
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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smjjames

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6948 on: November 17, 2009, 05:11:48 pm »
Quote from: KaelGotDwarves on November 17, 2009, 05:02:25 pm
Hmm, where is the link to the new weapon raws in the next version? I know Toady linked us to examples but I can't find it now.

Its back on page 461 (if you use default settings).

@Footkerchief: And my confusion over the flail vs morningstar didn't really help.
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Igfig

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6949 on: November 17, 2009, 05:16:53 pm »
Okay, new topic.   I was reading this post recently, and there're a few things I was wondering about the reaction stuff.

What qualifies as a REACTION_CLASS? 

Is the [WEAPON] token shorthand for [REACTION_CLASS:WEAPON], or would we have to define a new reaction classes if we wanted to, say, make weapons out of metal blocks?

If [WEAPON] is a reaction class, what other tokens count as reaction classes?  Some are pretty obvious, like [LEATHER] and [ITEMS_BARRED], but what about stuff like [IMPLIES_ANIMAL_KILL] or (dare I say) [BRITTLE]?

Likewise, if [WEAPON] is a reaction class, how do we specify that we want to be able to accept any weaponable material in a reaction?  Is there some kind of implied [WEAPON_MAT] tag?

Spoiler: example (click to show/hide)
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Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6950 on: November 17, 2009, 05:27:07 pm »
Quote from: Igfig on November 17, 2009, 05:16:53 pm
If [WEAPON] is a reaction class, what other tokens count as reaction classes?  Some are pretty obvious, like [LEATHER] and [ITEMS_BARRED], but what about stuff like [IMPLIES_ANIMAL_KILL] or (dare I say) [BRITTLE]?

None of those tags declare the material as a member of a reaction class per se.  The only tag that does that is REACTION_CLASS:X, where X, the reaction class, is referenced by a reaction to specify what kinds of reagents can be used.  The other stuff can act kind of like a reaction class, but only for hardcoded jobs like crafting.  I think the reason Toady didn't bring it all under the reaction class system is so that he wouldn't have to take the dubious step of assigning hardcoded behaviors to certain arbitrary strings. (overexplained stuff isn't really directed at you, just for public edification)

So the second part of your example is the right one, if you've put [REACTION_CLASS:BLOCK_SWORD_CLASS] and [MATERIAL_REACTION_PRODUCT:BLOCK_SWORD_MAT:<whatever material it should turn into>] on all the relevant materials and/or material templates.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2009, 05:36:22 pm by Footkerchief »
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Lancensis

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6951 on: November 17, 2009, 05:33:57 pm »
Any chance of being able to create reactions for clothing that fits dwarves?

I have had a disappointing evening.
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skaltum

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6952 on: November 17, 2009, 05:41:25 pm »
Quote from: Lancensis on November 17, 2009, 05:33:57 pm
Any chance of being able to create reactions for clothing that fits dwarves?

I have had a disappointing evening.

any clothes created by a race will be an exact fit for that race.

so while elves can wear human gear Humans cant wear elvish armor because elvish armor is narrow

just like how killing a goblin as a dwarf the goblins only have narrow armor. and if a human killed a dwarf the dwarf will drop "Small X armor"
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Quote from: Hammerstar on March 20, 2011, 04:04:27 pm
I just realized, after adding the new body parts to the other races, that I have an entire squad of dwarves with a shield in each hand and swinging their axes with their penises. There's nightmare fuel for those goblins, in more ways than one.

CobaltKobold

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6953 on: November 17, 2009, 05:46:57 pm »
skaltum: I think the new version is meant. Under unfinished business you will find
  • Issue with stout creatures vs. items
I, too, would like to know if you can specify item size and whatnot for things that might need it- armor/clothes are all that presently qualify.
Quote from: Footkerchief on November 17, 2009, 05:08:32 pm
Incidentally we could have been having this same argument about polearms. 
And their differences from farm implements, are they "military" or "improvised"...waaaay worse than arguing about what a holy water sprinkler is.
lighter note: Godendag is a name for what is essentially a wooden polearm spikedclub(noflail). It means "good day" in Dutch.

Nice to see you can pommelstrike, unfortunately it will only randomly happen at present. I'd kind of like to see some skill mod in there for correctly selecting which strikes...but that's later.
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Knight Otu

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6954 on: November 17, 2009, 05:57:14 pm »
Quote from: skaltum on November 17, 2009, 05:41:25 pm
Quote from: Lancensis on November 17, 2009, 05:33:57 pm
Any chance of being able to create reactions for clothing that fits dwarves?

I have had a disappointing evening.

any clothes created by a race will be an exact fit for that race.
Unless they are dropped as an item corpse, or, as Lancensis presumably meant, they are created through a smelter reaction. In those cases, they are created human-size, oddly enough.

Quote from: skaltum on November 17, 2009, 05:41:25 pm
so while elves can wear human gear
Isn't human gear stout for elves? Never really played much as an elf.
Edit - *checks* Yep, it's stout for elves.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2009, 06:01:23 pm by Knight Otu »
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zchris13

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6955 on: November 17, 2009, 05:59:37 pm »
Pommel smash is epic.
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Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6956 on: November 17, 2009, 06:01:34 pm »
The clothing size thing is probably still in flux, due to this not-yet-started List item:
# Issue with stout creatures vs. items
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jplur

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6957 on: November 17, 2009, 06:05:28 pm »
Will traps/pressure plates work in adventure mode in this version?

I'm asking for the sake of the next iteration of this: http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=25429.0
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diefortheswarm

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6958 on: November 17, 2009, 06:57:46 pm »
Quote from: Toady One on November 17, 2009, 10:06:34 am
Quote from: smjjames
On the note of liasons, will we have Elven civ liasons? I'm not talking about your dwarven civ having an elf or goblin liason (I've never seen a dwarf civ with a human liason, maybe because their lives are short), I'm talking about the Elves having their own liason. This may actually be possible now with modding. I had heard of people mentioning the elves having liasons but they die off in worldgen and aren't replaced. I would make this question green, but it may get answered by the modders as I'm not sure.

Do you mean a diplomat of any kind?  They send somebody over in the currently released version to make tree cutting agreements if you get up to a baron, I think.

What we are trying to ask is whether or not Elves will send a Trade Liaison who we can order goods and exotic pets from.
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KillerClowns

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6959 on: November 17, 2009, 07:03:18 pm »
Quote from: Mephansteras on November 17, 2009, 03:09:06 pm
...I just wanted to avoid some of the flashier 'hollywood style' of combat that emphasizes highly visible attacks over functionality.

There is a place for that, though.  Gladiatorial combat, sacrifice-by-combat, or other forms of combat with a crowd involved, might allow for such flashiness.  And especially arrogant young soldiers might attempt moves they've seemed gladiators perform... with hilarity ensuing when the drill instructor teaches him why those are only seen in an arena.  This is all very far away, of course...
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