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[Felblood]

I'm all for extreamely tough characters being able to power through shock and pain with willpower and toughness. That's actually pretty realistic.

I just don't want to see that kind of feat so common that it's trivialized.

The trouble is, even starting level adventurers can keep on fighting in states that should bring down anything short of a Navy SEAL, or at least a Smoke Jumper.

Has anyone here read Lone Survivor?

Whether you agree with Marcus Luttrel's views on the Iraq war or not, his first hand account of the Battle of Murphy's Ridge is a fascinating study on the limits of human endurance.

I served under a Smokejumper once. He seemed to be genuinely amazed that his assigned underlings were unable to run up shale cliffs with heavy loads. The inability to maneuver easily over this sort of terrain, without leaving a trail, was the chief problem for the SEALs on Murphy's Ridge.

One wonders if the entire Operation Redwing fiasco could have been avoided, if Murphy and his team had been forced to do more maneuvers in the high deserts of Northwest Utah, where we fought that particular complex. There's more to dealing with the mountains than getting acclimated to the altitude; the terrain itself is completely different from Coronado Island. The fact that Redwings SEAL did so much damage to the enemy (About 100 Taliban fighters were killed, by a four man team that was supposed to be there to assassinate one man and escape.) is a testament to their skill and toughness, in spite of being so completely out of their tactical element.

Frogmen on a shale ridge, in the high desert. Who came up with that one anyway?

[SirHoneyBadger]

I've run up loose shale cliffs before, and yeah, it's not really like much else. There's almost a rhythm to be achieved, between constant movement of plowing through the loose rock, and sudden stops to balance yourself.

It's a little like walking uphill through heavy snow, I guess, except the "snow" consists of slick, razor sharp gravel salted with larger chunks/slabs of rock that can shift, or slide down onto you, suddenly.

Definitely takes some getting used to, and it's a heck of a lot easier if your hands aren't full. It's not a situation where you want to keel over and plant your face, or suffer a bad fall.

It's not that it's terribly difficult to climb, though, really, but it can be dangerous, and experience really helps.

I'm also not sure how viably one could actually pass through such an area quickly, without leaving atleast some kind of discernable trail. With plenty of time, it would be possible.

The slipperyness and looseness of the rock, and the necessity of going forward through it in a fairly constant rate, would be the obstacles to overcome. 

[Kishmond]

So what are temporary criticals?

[Footkerchief]

So what are temporary criticals?

I think that means updating the CRIT_BOOST system (it's a weapon tag), which is temporary because it's a placeholder for better ways of specifying the stabbiness of weapons.  Could be entirely wrong though.

[PMantix]

Has anyone here read Lone Survivor?

My brother had me read that after he got into BUDS..    the intro is pretty sad. Great book tho.


I agree with keeping legendary skills rare as well..  I don't think anyone should be able to reach legendary status just by working at it for X amount of years. And that goes for any of the skills. I am never going to be a champion body builder or play for the NBA..  and I doubt any amount of time I spend trying to attain those goals will get me more than proficient in either case*.

Some skills should just be innate, as suggested in the dwarves can fail thread.


*

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I am going to be a legendary mechanical engineer in about 3 weeks tho, yay graduation 

[Neonivek]

I'm all for extreamely tough characters being able to power through shock and pain with willpower and toughness. That's actually pretty realistic.

I just don't want to see that kind of feat so common that it's trivialized.

I think we can find a middle ground here.

Master-Legendary creatures with super attributes (or rather attributes that clearly mark beyond the species maximum) should be able to consistently do the somewhat impossible and survive, block, or ignore what would otherwise kill even the most hearty of their kin even without magical artefacts behind them. Master-Legendary should feel exactly like that.
-Basically Legends are the equivolent of Demigods in Greek Mythology.

However the middle ground is that Master-Legendary creatures with super attributes shouldn’t be taken lightly and that any Adventurer who reaches that point should quite frankly be legendary excluding the “Easy raise” skills which are fine, they just need to have less impact on attributes.
-Mind you that outside of Adventurers and your Dwarves... it doesn't take Legends lightly... they usually are formed from people who killed hundreds of people in battle... Though it is kinda sad that otherwise legendary skilled creatures don't form outside of combat scenarios in world gen.

Though this requires restructuring.

[Vlynndar]

Yes, 'legendary' pretty much means that that person/dwarf is immortialised by, well, the legends of their people.
Legends about a dwarf being able to keep holding off numerous goblins, while his arm was chopped off two minutes ago.
Or about, say, a human battling a legendary lion with impenetrable skin and winning by strangling the beast.

[Tsktac]

Yes, 'legendary' pretty much means that that person/dwarf is immortialised by, well, the legends of their people.
Legends about a dwarf being able to keep holding off numerous goblins, while his arm was chopped off two minutes ago.
Or about, say, a human battling a legendary lion with impenetrable skin and winning by strangling the beast.

This makes since but shouldn't it reflect on the race's culture?
  For example a dwarf that can mine an entire cluster of magnetite before taking a drinking break, that is legendary.  An armorer that regularly makes iron armor as strong or stronger than steel, that is legendary.  An engraver that can  smooth and carve walls of granite with his bare hands, that's just dwarfy  .
  It seem like even proficient skills in df seem to be that of legends.  Imagine the real life legend of John Henry or Paul Bunyan.  It may be fairly common to see a legendary miner but, it's still something of legends in a fort that depends on that skill.

Off topic
http://img120.imageshack.us/my.php?image=18139614jy5.jpg
Did anyone strike a peculiar chamber?

[Techhead]

I suppose the easiest three ways to reduce the amount of legendaries are:
A. Reduce XP gain.
B. Change the curve from Arithmatic to Geometric or Exponential.
C. Increase the number of intermediate skill levels. Apprentice, Mediocre, Distinguished, Respected, Renowned. We need more adjectives here!

[SirHoneyBadger]

I suppose the easiest three ways to reduce the amount of legendaries are:
A. Reduce XP gain.
B. Change the curve from Arithmatic to Geometric or Exponential.
C. Increase the number of intermediate skill levels. Apprentice, Mediocre, Distinguished, Respected, Renowned. We need more adjectives here!

I agree.

I'm also of the opinion that spontaneous skill from producing artifacts isn't a great idea.

I'd rather have it that only Legendaries have a chance to produce artifacts. It would reduce the sheer amount of artifacts, true, but that would add to the challenge of the game, make artifacts themselves more (appropriately) special (which might be a good balancing thing, if artifacts are going to be magical), and it would also make a lot more sense, since dabblers--dwarfs or not--really shouldn't be able to produce works of limitless quality.

[PMantix]

I suppose the easiest three ways to reduce the amount of legendaries are:
A. Reduce XP gain.
B. Change the curve from Arithmatic to Geometric or Exponential.
C. Increase the number of intermediate skill levels. Apprentice, Mediocre, Distinguished, Respected, Renowned. We need more adjectives here!

That would decrease the overall progression of skill, yes. But it is still an unrealistic model for learning. Some people will never be rocket scientists, Olympians, or movie stars no matter how hard they try.

[SirHoneyBadger]

Well, it would be great and all if dwarfs all had a secret "potential ceiling" for each and every skill in the game, but at the same time, something like that would be hell on us players, if it weren't handled in a very good way.

[penguinofhonor]

Maybe have dwarves be interested in certain skills (listed in their profiles), and they can only get to Legendary in those. Otherwise they'd be capped at High Master or something (currently 2 levels below legendary). The cap wouldn't be too low, and they wouldn't make an artifact in that skill ever.

The best suggestion I've heard for skill levels so far is that experience gain should be based on time, not on the number of actions. This solves the main problem, that high-level dwarves gain experience faster from the increased speed.

[SirHoneyBadger]

Maybe have dwarves be interested in certain skills (listed in their profiles), and they can only get to Legendary in those. Otherwise they'd be capped at High Master or something (currently 2 levels below legendary). The cap wouldn't be too low, and they wouldn't make an artifact in that skill ever.

The best suggestion I've heard for skill levels so far is that experience gain should be based on time, not on the number of actions. This solves the main problem, that high-level dwarves gain experience faster from the increased speed.

Two very good suggestions++

[Mephansteras]

Maybe have dwarves be interested in certain skills (listed in their profiles), and they can only get to Legendary in those. Otherwise they'd be capped at High Master or something (currently 2 levels below legendary). The cap wouldn't be too low, and they wouldn't make an artifact in that skill ever.

Or, to make things more interesting, have dwarves have both interests/disinterests and aptitudes/ineptitudes. A dwarf will be happier doing what they're interested and be unhappy doing things they aren't interested in. They can only get legendary in things they have an aptitude for and can't get quite as high in areas they have an ineptitude for (not quite the right word but...). That gives the player situations where they can choose to make a given dwarf happy at the cost of skill, or work harder to keep that dwarf happy to gain higher skills for them.

The only problem with that idea is that the vast majority of dwarves will just have their preferences ignored, since later immigrants just don't get a whole lot of thought from most players.