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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items  (Read 3573615 times)

CobaltKobold

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6390 on: November 06, 2009, 04:04:14 pm »

EDIT: I just checked, and it seems that in its solid form, adamantine is definitely lighter than air, although somewhat denser than helium.  Still-- why doesn't it float?

Interesting that adamantine is denser when liquid.
Try again, air density should be about [DENSITY:1.2] dry at STP. Adamantine has more than [DENSITY:1] (200 or so?) so it is not lighter than air. Certainly should float in water though (~1000)
Toady: Demons impersonating imaginary gods is cool and all, but will there be other, perhaps non-sinister, ways for demons to wind up ruling societies?
challenging the leader for the right to rule is pretty non-sinister if killing is not necessary. Did you mean 'peaceful'? 'cause they're not gonna go in for that, at least Demons. Their ethicpersonalities seem to pretty much forbid such things. (And by peaceful I'm excluding the "Look, I'm a demon. Do you really think you stand a chance?" intimidation method.)

Unfortunately I think only the ex-Titans would really go for a "bloodless revolution" being associated with spheres of learning and wisdom and whatnot. It was kind of a nice difference with Giants who (personally) feel more like the simple, rock-throwing club-toting megabeasts.

This game lacks clubs/truncheons and staves and other simple/peasant weapons. You wouldn't part an old man and his walking stick, would you?

Indade that is some heady stuff in the devlog. I was thinking that it was one of the "skip"-likely because I expected it to take a week.

I wonder why they aren't getting into dwarves' and elves' civs. Dwarves seem like they'd be humanlike (pantheon, sneak, etc) but elves I'm not so sure of.
No, that was most likely one of the above-ground random titans. Toady's stated that the underground ones don't really do much of anything until you see them.
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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6391 on: November 06, 2009, 04:21:01 pm »

Dammit. My mistake. I somehow missed that line.


As far as things being denser when liquid is concerned, there are two things to consider: First, this simply happens with some substances, like water. Secondly, the density might be more of a bulk density thing, accounting for air space, which might make some sense, at least when it's woven. Less sense when it's a frigging hammer though.
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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6392 on: November 06, 2009, 04:23:05 pm »

[Diamond]'s similar to obsidian in that regard, except it's harder. And with a different crystal structure.
Fixed.
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Cruxador

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6393 on: November 06, 2009, 04:58:07 pm »

Dammit. My mistake. I somehow missed that line.


As far as things being denser when liquid is concerned, there are two things to consider: First, this simply happens with some substances, like water. Secondly, the density might be more of a bulk density thing, accounting for air space, which might make some sense, at least when it's woven. Less sense when it's a frigging hammer though.
It doesn't "simply happen". It happens because ice has a crystal-type lattice, which holds the molecules in a fairly vacuous arrangement, whereas the liquid form allows molecules to flow over one another as close as is convenient. The same cannot apply to adamantine, because it forms strands. Unless the strands were something akin to carbon nanotubes, which I guess makes sense, except that that would be way too small to weave.
And it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for making swords and hammers out of.
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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6394 on: November 06, 2009, 04:58:41 pm »

And while it's probably slated for much later, what kind of interaction is there between these physical demons and the gods civilizations come up with?  Presumably, those gods will eventually stop being so imaginary all the time.

Some tidbits on the divine manifestation thing:

The elves aren't exactly monotheistic -- they believe in a force, not a deity, so it's a bit more like the animism you want, though not precisely (it's the spirit of the forest), or Star Wars before the bacteria worship.   They don't try to talk to the force, anyway, unlike the deity-worshippers in adv mode, and they'd mock anybody that tried (not that it takes much to set them off), though "feeling it" would certainly be fair game.  The force concept is specifically meant to allow supernatural activity without personification, although the random names are sometimes suggestive of a personification.  If the force were to manifest itself in the forest as a giant stag or something, it would be more like a deity, though when I get there, there is bound to be some fuzziness.
Now, the reason gods are treated like historical figures is so that eventually they can manifest and run around in worlds where they actually exist, but that won't be done until it's done.  There's nothing really preventing it from being the next thing to go in, but that's true of many, many things.

This game lacks clubs/truncheons and staves and other simple/peasant weapons. You wouldn't part an old man and his walking stick, would you?

We'll have them sooner or later:
# Req107, PRIMITIVE WEAPONS, (Future): Primitive item making in both dwarf mode and adventure mode. This includes use of primitive weapons by primitive entities.

And it does sound like the underground animal-peoples are getting primitive weapons, so primitive tribes of club-wielding giants and ogres might be practical.  You could probably hack it in the current version, but I doubt the current entity code "expects" dumb creatures.

I wonder why they aren't getting into dwarves' and elves' civs. Dwarves seem like they'd be humanlike (pantheon, sneak, etc) but elves I'm not so sure of.

It's possible that the random creature generator doesn't make use of spheres that would inspire worship in dwarves.  But then again... looking back at the spoiler, the second creature has METALS, MINERALS, and MOUNTAINS, so that's not it.  More probably, the dwarven entity structure isn't so inclined to allow rule by outsiders, not that you could tell by the current version, what with the Elf Queens etc. everywhere.
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JoRo

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6395 on: November 06, 2009, 05:26:40 pm »

If you could get a dwarven civ led by a random titan/beast, that would be one serious incentive to get your fort to mountainhome status (provided the bug with unexpected leaders not being controllable / starving to death or whatever gets fixed).  Getting sieged by an army led by a tubby cyclopean thrush or hairy purple lobster would be pretty sweet too.
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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6396 on: November 06, 2009, 05:27:22 pm »

Elven queens and such aren't cases of rule by outsiders, more cases of rule by members of assimilated cultures.
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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6397 on: November 06, 2009, 05:29:19 pm »

I wonder why they aren't getting into dwarves' and elves' civs. Dwarves seem like they'd be humanlike (pantheon, sneak, etc) but elves I'm not so sure of.

It's possible that the random creature generator doesn't make use of spheres that would inspire worship in dwarves.  But then again... looking back at the spoiler, the second creature has METALS, MINERALS, and MOUNTAINS, so that's not it.  More probably, the dwarven entity structure isn't so inclined to allow rule by outsiders, not that you could tell by the current version, what with the Elf Queens etc. everywhere.

It's also possible that the world Toady described in the devlog just didn't happen to make any demons that dwarves or elves would worship.  There were only three of them after all.  That said, it sounds like demons and titans (at least with the brand new system as far as it exists) may rely on a pre-existing faith to impersonate, and/or also need the civilization in question to not have developed any stable ruling system of it's own.  So maybe dwarves and elves more quickly develop faiths and governments that a demon can't get into, or at least managed to in this particular world.
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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6398 on: November 06, 2009, 05:52:23 pm »

*DEVLOGASM*

In similar vein, I wonder if the elf ate that monster from the deeps.  And if it did, did it gain any special abilities from the consumption?  Will eating dragon, or demon, flesh at some point give special abilities?
The random monsters can be made of poison, right? I'm sure in fortress mode it'll track ingested poison, but will an elf that eats a defeated poisonous enemy in worldgen suffer the effects?


Regarding monstrous/demonic rulers, maybe there's a simple tag or set of tags that allows a civ to worship a single entity that comes along and defeats the current leader in single combat (rather than as part of another civ's invading army). On the other hand, that wouldn't quite work for the first monster's ability to unite several different human villages.

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6399 on: November 06, 2009, 05:59:03 pm »

Since humans don't have a civ ruler by default while dwarves do, maybe that's what will prevent megabeasts from running a dwarven civilization.  Individual human civs do have a common pantheon, so it makes sense that a fake god would be recognized throughout the civ.
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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6400 on: November 06, 2009, 06:01:46 pm »

In similar vein, I wonder if the elf ate that monster from the deeps.  And if it did, did it gain any special abilities from the consumption?  Will eating dragon, or demon, flesh at some point give special abilities?
The random monsters can be made of poison, right? I'm sure in fortress mode it'll track ingested poison, but will an elf that eats a defeated poisonous enemy in worldgen suffer the effects?

Unfortunately ingestion is the one route of poison administration that isn't tracked yet:

Quote from: penguinofhonor
TL;DR: Alcohol and drugs should be weak poisons, poison effects should be created for them should be usable by creatures, poisons should be turned into general substances and allow positive effects as well as negative.

Yeah, I alluded to this in my dev notes on the 2nd -- poison effects are already just "creature interaction syndromes" on the material.  That I don't have ingestion yet is the main barrier to doing alcohol, and as I add in positive effects, everything else would work out (of course there'd need to be AI and jobs and so on to use things for whatever purpose).  The framework is in place, it just needs to be used for more things.

I'm not sure whether any poison effects will work in worldgen yet.  It must be a pain to have to make a crappier worldgen version of every combat mechanic that gets implemented.
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Neonivek

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6401 on: November 06, 2009, 06:32:08 pm »

To finish up the Adamantine discussion

Adamantine IS brittle in fact it is incapable of bending so it simply shatters. It is just so unfathomably hard that any force that could shatter it would need to be mighty indeed.

I am guessing some of these demons arn't very strong. So that means demons are going to be having variable strength.

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Dante

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6402 on: November 06, 2009, 07:04:58 pm »

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6403 on: November 06, 2009, 07:09:27 pm »

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Dante

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6404 on: November 06, 2009, 07:16:49 pm »

Well, like I said, demons you will be able to identify, because as far as we know, they still have an absolute, fixed form, defined in the raws.
And
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