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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items  (Read 3664450 times)

Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #1605 on: April 16, 2009, 01:14:28 am »

I'm sorry, I don't mean to sound harsh, but I'm sick to death of this argument.

I think you're pigeonholing his post into the typical Poster has mandated the construction of multithreading performance argument.  He was asking a legitimate, civil question constrained to the impact of the new features on performance.

Also, the only reason DF runs even on the best computers is because Toady's vision has already been highly compromised by performance considerations (loaded language, but it's true).  I don't think the degree of purity you're looking for was ever there.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2009, 01:18:02 am by Footkerchief »
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #1606 on: April 16, 2009, 01:27:11 am »

Then don't make it an argument.  He was asking a legitimate, civil question constrained to the impact of the new features on performance, a far cry from the typical "Poster has mandated the construction of multithreading."

Also, the only reason DF runs even on the best computers is because Toady's vision is already highly constrained by performance considerations.  I don't think the degree purity you're looking for was ever there.
[/quote]

I know, and I didn't mean to sound harsh on a personal basis. I appologise if I did, SirPenguin.

I just am bothered by the idea that DF already has made a bunch of concessions to performance, and yet it seems like every week there's another post questioning how something that's legitimately cool and interesting, is going to screw up low end computers.

How much more does the game have to be diminished?

It just makes me bitter because I'm really working hard, and doing difficult things, in order to have the best game experience I can, because it's a priority for me, and there seem to be much more vocal advocates for low end computer owners than high end computer owners.

I'm not rich. I make just under 10$ an hour, I'm married, I have a mortgage, medical bills/prescriptions, and we have 6 older pets, some of whom are sick. I just want my side to be heard.
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Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #1607 on: April 16, 2009, 01:35:07 am »

I'm not rich. I make just under 10$ an hour, I'm married, I have a mortgage, medical bills/prescriptions, and we have 6 older pets, some of whom are sick. I just want my side to be heard.

Well, as usual, the ideal is that the raws, init files and worldgen params don't take sides, so to speak.  In this particular case, players could adjust worldgen to make those FPS-destroying caverns easily avoided or nonexistent.  Although the distance-finding bug he mentioned is an annoyance whenever Z-levels come into play.
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G-Flex

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #1608 on: April 16, 2009, 01:44:58 am »

The computer requirements are always going to be an issue. But the fact is, modern computers are fast. I know there's a strong desire to provide a place for people trying to play DF with a Commodore 64 or an Amiga, but Toady's already done away with graphic requirement issues, which is a big deal by itself.

Commodores and Amigas? Come on now. A LOT of people have trouble running DF at playable speeds on relatively modern computers. Not everybody has a brand-spanking new computer. Granted, I don't think the new underground features are going to kill people's computers as much as others might think, but that's not the point. DF is, in fact, extremely processor-intensive.

Also, the graphics requirement issues are only "done away with" for the people for whom the new graphics options actually work. There are a lot of combinations of options, and not all of them work for everyone; in fact, in my case, it seems like none of them do.

I haven't had a brand new computer since the 90's, and I've been saving up for a great one for years (almost $1800 at $12.50 a paycheck, when I could afford it.). I want DF to live up to it's potential, and to the investment that I'm making. I also don't want Toady's vision of the game to be compromised.

I understand this, but if Toady didn't make any concessions at all we'd be in a real mess. The question is where to draw the line, and HOW these new features might impact processing. The post you quoted also mentioned other concerns anyway, like irrational pathing.

I know people can't afford new computers (I'm one of them, it's a computer or a new bed, and I'm pretty tired of sleeping at a 45 degree angle on broken box-springs), and I don't want to sound mercenary, but people with higher end computers are more likely to have more money to donate, so I think our needs should be considered, too.

I know it's probably not what you're getting at here, but you make it sound like people with high-end computers "need" more CPU-intensive programming than the rest of us. They don't. They're just able to handle it better. It's not as if you're actually suffering anything for having a computer higher than the base system requirements.

I say, if you're playing DF on a Tandy or some shit, then stop. Just stop. Save up, collect cans, sell blood, do what you need to do, and get a stripped down computer with a good processor, a lot of ram, a high-end heat sink, and absolutely no frills. It will free your life.

There you go sounding insulting again, especially with the Tandy bit.

Not everybody can afford to blow even 2-3 hundred bucks on a newish, decent computer. Some of us have to work, pay for college, living, etc. and don't have that kind of disposable income, period. From what you've said, you seem what that's like, so try not to sound so condescending. The fact that so many people have trouble running DF at playable framerates shows that it ISN'T just a problem with the extreme low-end of the spectrum.
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #1609 on: April 16, 2009, 02:14:54 am »

I'm being condescending to make a point. Computers are progressing even as we speak, right now. If you can't afford to spend 2-300$ on a computer, then you can't. That doesn't make you any better or any worse than anyone else, and it shouldn't force the ones who do have high computers to enjoy the game less.

Nobody's forcing anybody to update their computers, and nobody's forcing anybody to update their version of DF.

It's the same thing with buying a car. You can get a bike to get you around, or you can get an expensive sportscar to get you around faster. Just because those cheap, economical cars exist, doesn't mean that speed limits should be lowered, or highways be done away with.

Like I mentioned, I'm all for performance switches. That'd be great to have, and I don't mind at all if Toady takes time away from other aspects of the game to provide them. But I also want features that a high performance computer can take advantage of, and I don't want those features to be dulled purely because of economical factors.

If it cost anything to play, then my opinion would be less strong, but to reiterate: it's a free game, with no graphic requirements. The emphasis should therefore be on the consumer to live up to the game's potential, or to compromise their own individual experience, rather than the community taken as a whole.
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Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #1610 on: April 16, 2009, 02:37:42 am »

As much as I'd like to dissect your logic and metaphors (and will, if there's another thread for it), I'm instead requesting that this thread not be further derailed by this general performance argument you're "sick to death of," except for where performance considerations specifically pertain to the current development, as in SirPenguin's post.  You've made your point and we're all in agreement that having options is good.
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Gauphastus

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #1611 on: April 16, 2009, 04:27:40 am »

I know quite a few very excited DF players looking forward to seeing these caves, myself included.

I ask the obvious, but just imagine the kind of adventures you could have down there, searching for lost artifacts, armed only with the head of your king.
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Osmosis Jones

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #1612 on: April 16, 2009, 05:39:13 am »

I ask the obvious, but just imagine the kind of adventures you could have down there, searching for lost artifacts, armed only with the head of your king.

That's why I love DF, any other game and it would be the other way around, but not us :D

More to the point though, with this underground revamp, is there any plans with getting rid of the bizarre beginnings for cave rivers, so that they don't appear out of nothingness?
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Random832

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #1613 on: April 16, 2009, 07:47:03 am »

I say, if you're playing DF on a Tandy or some shit, then stop. Just stop. Save up, collect cans, sell blood, do what you need to do, and get a stripped down computer with a good processor, a lot of ram, a high-end heat sink, and absolutely no frills. It will free your life.

The problem some people see with this is, with the way computer technology is evolving, single-threaded programs like DF (yes, there's a graphics thread, but most of the real work is in pathfinding etc) are hitting a wall. Which means soon enough it will not be possible to just buy a better computer to play it - DF can only use half of my laptop's potential. That's ignoring the fact that even with a separate graphics thread, it doesn't play nice with dual cores, so I have to limit it to one specific core (which means the graphics thread runs on the same one)

And it hardly has to be "a tandy or some shit" to be incapable of running DF at an acceptable speed - can _you_ maintain [say] 40FPS in a 6x6 fortress with lots of water, magma, and hundreds of dwarves?
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Tormy

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #1614 on: April 16, 2009, 07:47:19 am »

I'm instead requesting that this thread not be further derailed by....

Period....lads, please do not derail this thread on a daily basis. This topic is all about the dev items of the next release...please stick to the topic.  ::)
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Pruvan

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #1615 on: April 16, 2009, 08:15:10 am »

Quote
Possibility for unending attacks

I'm a bit confused on this particular item. Does this refer to a never ending siege or something? Cut off from all outsiders as goblins set up camp outside my fortress' doors? Marching armies of goblins coming to reinforce the frontline as the first trebuchets are being fired onto the mountainside? Or am I getting my hopes up...
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Tormy

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #1616 on: April 16, 2009, 08:44:56 am »

Quote
Possibility for unending attacks

I'm a bit confused on this particular item. Does this refer to a never ending siege or something? Cut off from all outsiders as goblins set up camp outside my fortress' doors? Marching armies of goblins coming to reinforce the frontline as the first trebuchets are being fired onto the mountainside? Or am I getting my hopes up...

That is a good question, but ohhhh boy...unending attacks? HELL YEAH! It sounds awesome.  8) This is one of the features, what I've been waiting for a long time. You will have to wall yourself in, or maintain a huge military & trap system in order to save the fortress. This & enhanced siege system = I am forced to hit the donation button again.  :D
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The Minister

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #1617 on: April 16, 2009, 08:49:11 am »

Quote
Possibility for unending attacks

I'm a bit confused on this particular item. Does this refer to a never ending siege or something? Cut off from all outsiders as goblins set up camp outside my fortress' doors? Marching armies of goblins coming to reinforce the frontline as the first trebuchets are being fired onto the mountainside? Or am I getting my hopes up...

Ha, that's an interesting interpretation.

I thought it referred to fixing the problem that if your fort exists long enough and faces enough sieges, eventually you won't get any more because you'll have killed all the enemies in the world.  Actually, your version would probably be cooler.
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Tormy

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #1618 on: April 16, 2009, 08:53:48 am »

^ I don't think so, because I was getting sieged in my 120+ years old fortress even. Perhaps Toady will give us a proper answer.  :)

While we are at it....some related HFS feature would be nice to have. IE: Your dwarves find a void gate or something in the depths, which will spawn monsters constantly, until the gate itself is destroyed.
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Hoborobo234

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #1619 on: April 16, 2009, 09:18:34 am »

You would have to warp some badass mnotherfucking carp in order to shut one of those babies down
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Rather than having them directly force you to mine adamantine, I would suggest that they give you strange moods that require adamantine. "Dig out the adamantine or Urist here goes insane and dies" is suitably vicious.

(It occurs to me that you can probably get "Lovecraft" as the random name of your fortress. That's when you know you're screwed.)
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