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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items  (Read 3666437 times)

Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11445 on: January 28, 2010, 02:56:03 pm »

(or maybe you just haven't visited this thread in a while?)

I think it's that.
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Morrigi

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11446 on: January 28, 2010, 03:55:21 pm »

From the wiki:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Umm...
« Last Edit: January 28, 2010, 03:59:34 pm by Morrigi »
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Lancensis

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11448 on: January 28, 2010, 04:26:47 pm »

From the wiki:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Umm...

That's awesome. Why are we even discussing oil when we could be using humans as fuel?
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theTrueMikeBrown

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11449 on: January 28, 2010, 04:27:54 pm »

From the wiki:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Umm...

That quote is actually an instance of vandalism in Wikipedia - disregard it
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What puts the "ape" in apricot?

Rockphed

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11450 on: January 28, 2010, 04:39:57 pm »

From the wiki:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Umm...

That quote is actually an instance of vandalism in Wikipedia - disregard it

But then we would miss out on the morbid and totally awesome discussion of using the corpses of our enemies as fuel for melting down their dropped equipment.  Have you no heart?
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Only vaguely. Made of the same substance and put to the same use, but a bit like comparing a castle and a doublewide trailer.

Morrigi

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11451 on: January 28, 2010, 04:49:54 pm »

From the wiki:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Umm...

That quote is actually an instance of vandalism in Wikipedia - disregard it

But then we would miss out on the morbid and totally awesome discussion of using the corpses of our enemies as fuel for melting down their dropped equipment.  Have you no heart?

It's so wrong... Yet so dwarfy.
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warhammer651

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11452 on: January 28, 2010, 04:51:31 pm »

that would certainly help metalworkers in fortresses with no wood and/or lava.


hang on, this means we could make megaconstuction powered by the agony of burning elves!

BRILLIANT!
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Diablous

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11453 on: January 28, 2010, 04:57:20 pm »

that would certainly help metalworkers in fortresses with no wood and/or lava.


hang on, this means we could make megaconstuction powered by the agony of burning elves!

BRILLIANT!

Give this man a medal! Preferably one made with elves as fuel.
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To dine on a pizza, with cheese,
Thought it was quite fine
To be partly feline,
Excepting the hairballs and fleas.

theTrueMikeBrown

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11454 on: January 28, 2010, 05:23:14 pm »

I have to admit, I thought it was cool too - I just dislike the people who vandalize wikipedia about as much as elves are commonly hated around here.
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What puts the "ape" in apricot?

jamoecw

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11455 on: January 28, 2010, 05:41:30 pm »

It was also available for centuries before plate was, so a great many more people had the training to make it.

actually, no it wasn't.  think about it, it is a fairly common misconception.  making a sheet of metal more difficult than making interlocking rings?  greeks used bronze to make a cuirass which is too soft to make into decent chain armor.  carbon fiber vests were used before that and dubbed linothorax, which is quite different than medieval padded cloth.


First, while Bronze was used in brestplates and far earlier than the medieval period, iron and steel, which replaced bronze due to availability,  was a good deal harder to work, as making the large sheet required needs fairly consistent temperatures across the entire surface, which was much tricker due to the higher temps that iron is worked at. Further, once the rings are made, much less skill is needed to assemble them, meaning that much of the labor can be done by apprentices, rather than the expert armorsmith. (I've even come across sources suggesting that whole villages participated in the weaving of mail, but I don't know how reliable those are.) Also, a flaw in plate armor ruins the entire piece, while a few bad links in a coat of mail can easily be replaced.


Taking it even further, mail is lighter and more flexible than plate, meaning that the arms and legs, which in classical times were largely unprotected, going by museum pieces, could be covered at a small penalty in flexibility.

i avoided saying iron or steel plate for a reason, not that i don't think that steel 'trauma' plates were used, but that there is a debate on whether or not steel was used for such in prehistoric times.  any way you cut it though plate armor came before chain, after all not only is bronze easier to work with, but protective plates are pretty intuitive compared to chain.

All you need is to have learned how to draw the metal into wire.

The making of wire, and hence the creation of all manner of convenient things like, oh, nails, is actually much more complicated than you'd ever think, so half the problem (or, maybe even 90%) of historical chainmail was getting workable rings.  Early nails were a real hassle, too.  Obviously, the current DF model is a mix of technologies and techniques that, in typical fantasy fashion, has been mushed together, so the only way you can promote someone using an inferior technology is either through arbitrary means or by giving some ahistorical benefit to particular tools and techniques.

throw in folding methods for sheets and you get a viable method for creating steel plate armor well before one can make steel wire consistently, and you end up with a debate on whether or not it was possible or even done prehistorically.

historically groups of people did in fact use inferior technology alongside superior technology quite regularly, in fact it wasn't too unusual to discard a superior method for an inferior one due to custom or politics, and have it stick for centuries.  that is my problem with fantasy, generally it discards fantastic elements from history, in turn adds in magic fireballs and lightning and expects a believable world to emerge with non magical people being dominant over demigod level people, without using decent tactics or methods.  it is like every time one does try to achieve dominance there is a jar jar to win the battle against him/her/it.
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Hardrada

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11456 on: January 28, 2010, 06:30:48 pm »

From the wiki:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Umm...

That quote is actually an instance of vandalism in Wikipedia - disregard it

But then we would miss out on the morbid and totally awesome discussion of using the corpses of our enemies as fuel for melting down their dropped equipment.  Have you no heart?

It's so wrong... Yet so dwarfy.

Actually it's roman, Nero to be precise.  "He threw some Christians into the arena to wild beasts, others he crucified, and still others he ignited with fire to serve as human torches in his arena games or in his gardens."
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Morrigi

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11457 on: January 28, 2010, 06:32:30 pm »

Ya HAD to spoil it -.-
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James.Denholm

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11458 on: January 28, 2010, 06:48:31 pm »

God, everyone knows that the Romans were inspired by Dwarves. Duh.

Also, with burning bodies, perhaps Merchants will become a more precious comodity?
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Dwarfu

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11459 on: January 28, 2010, 06:53:25 pm »

Now that the positions/succession framework has been started,

What will happen to a spouse that becomes a consort but already holds another position?  Will the previous position simply be given up?

I generally make sure all my starting dwarves hold the first positions, and now I have my eye on elevating the expedition leader/1st mayor to Baron.  But he's usually married before this time and I was wondering what would happen if his spouse already held a position such as the Captain of the Guard.
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